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I have a Unisaw, so not in the market, but if I was, it would be for old iron and a rehab as new saws are getting pretty pricy for the well made machines. I get the safety angle, but my use of a table saw nowadays is quite limited (i.e., sheet goods), most of my work involves hand tools and I tend to rip on bandsaws. I was a heavy user at one time however, and when asked if I was leery of using a large tablesaw that can cut off my hand, I told fudge yep, every time I turn it on - and it gets a boatload of respect from me. Proper jigs, push sticks, featherboards, holddowns, proper technique, planning each cut, never putting my hand within 5 or 6 inches of a spinning anything and paying close attention is my sawstop, as the safety posters at work say, "A machine has no brains, so use your own." If I suspect that a cut may be dangerous, it likely is, and I find another way or make a jig if repetitive cuts are involved. Most "blood on the floor" accidents I hear about (outside an industrial or production shop environment) involve inexperience or poor (if any) training, bad technique, cutting short pieces, not having a splitter, poor condition of the machine, inattention or downright improper use of the machine. Granted, a SS "fixes" all of these risks, but for the last 35 years, knock on wood, I've managed the same risks by using my experience and remembering my training. However, I would not be critical of someone else's decision to buy a SS, as some are. If I were a surgeon, dentist, professional musician, etc., I would likely wish to eliminate all risks and perhaps would buy one, and only risk would be that the SS works as advertised. There is no risk free path.
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Not clever, just a honest observation that disagrees with the premise that without the US the majority of the innovation in the world would all come to a halt, and that Gass's behavior is ruthlessly suppressing innovation through endless legal fees.
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'Tis ironic reading this thread. We just had flooring installed and the guys used a Dewalt jobsite saw with no guards and no fence. The lead installer had is General Contractor's license on top of 20 years experience while the junior guy was a trainee. Talked to lead guy about the safety aspects of what they were doing. He just shrugged and said it would take too long to use the fence, guards, etc.
It appears as though the practice of using unfenced and unguarded tablesaws in the field may be more endemic than we've all been thinking. If true, then perhaps a legislative mandate for SS technology may not be as far fetched as once thought.
Just sayin'
Thanks, Curt
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"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."
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It's so bad in the field you can see it nearly every week on one of the home improvement shows. I can't count how many times I've seen Tom Silva on This Old House doing freehand work on his contractor saw with no guards and no fence. OTOH, I hardly ever see him with a Band-Aid, yet Sir Roy seems to donate blood every other show with simple hand tools. cputnam said:
'Tis ironic reading this thread. We just had flooring installed and the guys used a Dewalt jobsite saw with no guards and no fence. The lead installer had is General Contractor's license on top of 20 years experience while the junior guy was a trainee. Talked to lead guy about the safety aspects of what they were doing. He just shrugged and said it would take too long to use the fence, guards, etc.
It appears as though the practice of using unfenced and unguarded tablesaws in the field may be more endemic than we've all been thinking. If true, then perhaps a legislative mandate for SS technology may not be as far fetched as once thought.
Just sayin'
Still Learning,
Allan Hill
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Tapper said:
What I do know is that this technology has been a game-changer in this product line. If you take a look at the price of all the top-line saws, i.e. Powermatic, Delta, Jet, etc. and the current SS models, prices are very close, i.e. there is little financial reason to not buy a SS saw. Hatred is a strong motivator. I'm convinced that there are people on this forum who would never buy SS, no matter what the cost.
I wouldn't say the prices are close at all. I have not bought a saw in a long time, but here's what a quick google gave me. I picked the first hit. Sawstop contractor saw at Rockler: $1800 Grizz contractor saw (Grizzly G0771 ) : $700 Now, I am not debating quality, just the bottom line price, which drives a lot of purchases for hobbyists. It's not as if you can pay $100 more and get a sawstop. There's a huge price difference.
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Steve N said:
So essentially the court is going on Vacation, and instead of actually working, they just sided with an old answer from a lower court.
The Supremes are under no obligation to hear appeals, but do select a small number- relative to the number of requests - each year. This may be helpful: http://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-co...urces/supreme-1 ...
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thomasegan said:
[blockquote]Steve N said:
So essentially the court is going on Vacation, and instead of actually working, they just sided with an old answer from a lower court.
The Supremes are under no obligation to hear appeals, but do select a small number- relative to the number of requests - each year. This may be helpful: http://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-co...urces/supreme-1 ...
[/blockquote] Worth reading to understand the role of the Court. Cert is granted sparingly, and frankly, this particular issue is nowhere near the cutting edge of the law, but rather, represents the well worn, dull edge. Oh, and by the way, the Justices work pretty hard, along with their clerks, not an easy job. The public imposes their own biased political lens when viewing what Justices do, but to a person, each member of the Court is passionate about the law and love what they do. Witness the famous friendship of the late Justice Scalia and Justice Ginsberg, they hardly ever agreed on major cases, but they had great respect for each other and were very good friends on a personal basis.
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PaulJohnstone said:
[blockquote]Tapper said:
What I do know is that this technology has been a game-changer in this product line. If you take a look at the price of all the top-line saws, i.e. Powermatic, Delta, Jet, etc. and the current SS models, prices are very close, i.e. there is little financial reason to not buy a SS saw. Hatred is a strong motivator. I'm convinced that there are people on this forum who would never buy SS, no matter what the cost.
I wouldn't say the prices are close at all. I have not bought a saw in a long time, but here's what a quick google gave me. I picked the first hit. Sawstop contractor saw at Rockler: $1800 Grizz contractor saw (Grizzly G0771 ) : $700 Now, I am not debating quality, just the bottom line price, which drives a lot of purchases for hobbyists. It's not as if you can pay $100 more and get a sawstop. There's a huge price difference.
[/blockquote] There is no way that Sawstop will ever be able to compete with Grizzly - the sheer numbers will not allow it. However, I should've been more clear; I was speaking primarily about 3 HP cabinet saws. In that arena, aside from Grizzly, SS is very competitive price-wise. A quick search: PM2000 $3,000 Unisaw $2,600 SS PCS $2,730 SS Ind $3,900 I have a 3 HP SS PCS and it does all I need. It has a smaller footprint and a little smaller table, but has never been less than totally adequate for my needs - YMMV. Also of course, SS is the only saw with the accident preventing safety brake - you'll have to decide how much that's worth to you; I did. Doug
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Tapper said:
I was speaking primarily about 3 HP cabinet saws. In that arena, aside from Grizzly, SS is very competitive price-wise.
A quick search:
PM2000 $3,000
Unisaw $2,600
SS PCS $2,730
SS Ind $3,900
Seems a little unfair to exclude the Grizzly, but OK. That leaves us with your "apple to apple" comparison of: PM2000 $3,000 Unisaw $2,600 SS Ind $3,900 so it seems the SS is much higher in cost, as others have noted, based on your research. Quote:
Also of course, SS is the only saw with the accident preventing safety brake - you'll have to decide how much that's worth to you; I did.
I think you meant "the only saw on my list...". I suspect many would agree that the Bosch with the safety system is a much better option than SawStop - probably why SawStop is so concerned. Given their much, much higher price they are already having sales issues, and the emergence of a technologically superior option at a much lower price could easily put them out of business.
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geek2me said:
I think you meant "the only saw on my list...". I suspect many would agree that the Bosch with the safety system is a much better option than SawStop - probably why SawStop is so concerned. Given their much, much higher price they are already having sales issues, and the emergence of a technologically superior option at a much lower price could easily put them out of business.
The Bosch Reaxx Table saw at CPO is $1499. The SS Jobsite Saw is $1299 at most other retailers. That's a fair comparison.
Still Learning,
Allan Hill
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