Buying and selling tools online using Paypal - Fee Free. No protection.

[Martin S.]

I won't use "friends and family".

It requires a link to my bank account.  My paypal is only linked to a credit card.  They tried to get me to link to my bank account many times, but I will always refuse.  There is no way I am giving them the right to "freeze", money or take money from my bank account.  I would quit paypal all together before I would give them my bank account.

Another reason not to use it is that paypal is a service, and while they do take a percentage, it is how they stay in business, so it is unethical to cheat them out of their 2% or whatever it is.

When I see a seller requiring "friends and family", I offer to add a few bucks and do regular paypal, or write a check, and they can hold the merchandise until the check clears.  If it is someone with a very low post count, I offer to do a US postal money order.

I have bought many tools from woodnetters.  I have only been burned once, and I finally shamed him into refunding my money after he tried to sell other items, and I warned other members about how he misrepresented his tools.

I have bought several tools from the same people, over and over.

There are some that will ship me a tool before they even get my check, because we have a long established relationship.

I would suggest that sellers who want buyer to pay the 2% just build it into the price.

[WaterlooMarc]

As an aside: a bank account isn't required with friends and family. You can do it with a credit card and you pay the fees to PayPal.

[Stwood_]

I also will not use/require the friends and family during a regular transaction.
Now if I know a person and we are just transferring money between us, then I will use it.

[overland]

I too am one of those who is uncomfortable with requests to pay "Family and Friends."   If I know the seller I'll sometimes pay F&F to save the seller a few bucks--as a courtesy. There are a lot of regulars here to whom I wouldn't hesitate sending money that way--or sending cash in the mail, for that matter. But I feel it should be up to the buyer. In general it throws the burden of risk onto the buyer. That's what I dislike. Sawmill Creek, to name one example, prohibits such requests as a matter of policy. I wish Woodnet would as well.

[fredhargis]

Go ahead and beat me up: but the F&F thing is no different than any other dishonest transaction; it's essentially stealing from Paypal. Some years ago I did a few, but couldn't feel right about it. I will not do that, or ask others as a matter of principle. I will do as you did, offer to cover the fees if the item is of use to me...if the seller declines that I would pass....that said, I had never considered the loss of PP protection. Recently everything I've sold I mailed first, including my address in the package and ask the buyer to send me a check. I've seen a few folks phrase it as "take care of fees on your end", which puts it on the buyer.

[Rob Young]

As an aside: a bank account isn't required with friends and family. You can do it with a credit card and you pay the fees to PayPal.

This is how I do it.  The only reason I have the Mastercard is because I allowed PP to issue it as a way of having a fully verified PP account without attaching it to a bank account.  On the whole, it has worked well.  If I sell something, I eat the fees but I can also carry a positive balance on the card.  Or if I'm willing to be patient, PP will mail me a check.

If I use F&F to buy, I get charged the fee. When communicating through PMs to finalize the transaction, I will generally phrase it as "payment by PayPal OK" and don't bring up F&F unless the seller does.

[Philip1231]

My take on the PayPal question:

I have sold lots of items on Woodnet, and on other forums. I have sold lots more than I have bought, and perhaps I have a unique perspective. I was challenged once on the friends and family method of payment by a perspective buyer, and that prompted me to go to the PP website and research the rules and regulations concerning regular transactions vs. friends and family transactions. Surprisingly, there is no rule or regulation (at least that I could find, and I’ve had some experience with contract law) that stipulates that one or the other method must be used for a given transaction. PayPal is a multi-billion dollar company. They know what they are doing, and yet the friends/family payment method rules are vague to say the least. My interpreation is very simple: friends and family is a way to increase traffic on PayPal: nothing more, nothing less. This increased PP traffic ultimately increases revenue, just as your local supermarket puts milk and eggs on sale to get you into the store, to increase traffic, to increase sales.
When viewed in this light, using PP friends/family is a fee-free way to handle transactions. If you choose this method, you are giving up the buyer/seller protection that is afforded by the regular transaction model, and are avoiding the 2.9% payment for this protection. IMHO, this is not a violation of any PP rules: it is simply the low cost method of handling buyer/seller transactions. I welcome anyone to point me to the clause in the PP rules that stipulates otherwise.
Having said that, If I were a buyer and a seller refused to do the deal using the regular fee-based transaction, even though I agreed to pay the 2.9% fee, I would run away. Clearly, something is not right with the deal.
As a seller, if someone wants the protection of PP and agrees to pony up the extra 2.9%, no problem. That fee not only protects the buyer, but it also affords some protection to the seller (although PP is IMHO biased towards the satisfaction of the buyer).
In summary, based on my understanding of the PayPal rules (not heresay, but in depth study of what PayPal provides on their website), F/F transactions can be used for whatever is bought and sold on these forums. These transactions do not skirt any rules, nor do they imply any nefarious motives on the part of the seller.

[PaulJohnstone]

Just as a tip.. I think Paypal requires you to link a checking account. I have tried to remove mine (so that the default payment would be credit card, instead of always defaulting to checking).

Set up a separate checking account at your bank, just for paypal. No overdraft protection, etc.
It limits the damage someone can do if they get into your paypal account.
My special paypal checking account usually only has a balance of about $50 in it.

As far as people requesting F+F, there is a lot of cheap people on the internet that don't want to pay the 2% fee as a seller.
I guess I don't see it as a red flag. A scammer is going to scam you.  I have had very few problems on here. Someone sold me an expensive item with an oil leak without disclosing it.
I was able to resell it to someone else as a "project" at a big loss (I disclosed the leak), but paypal isn't going to help me in that case.
And yes, I guess it is possible the item was damaged in shipping which caused the leak, but highly unlikely.

[jteneyck]

My take on it is the same as Phillip's.  I couldn't find anything in PayPal's documentation that says F&F can only be used for one type of transaction or another.  As such, I use it and don't feel I'm committing any "theft of service" from PayPal.  You may feel otherwise, as is your right. 

You do not need to link your bank account with PayPal.  They keep prompting me to do so but I never have, nor do I intend to, and have been using PayPal for several years without issue.  It's linked to my credit card only, and I've never had any issues. 

John

[Martin S.]

OK, I have not sold anything with paypal, but I may in the future.

If you only have your paypal account linked to your credit card, how do you get your money?

Don't they just issue you credit to your credit card?

I guess you could "spend" the money, issued to your credit card, but is there any way to get "cash"?

Thanks, I have a few "extra" tools I need to get rid of someday, so I need to know how this works without linking to a bank account.