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(02-03-2017, 05:07 PM)JGrout Wrote: Well I agree; if SS is still around in 50 yrs or the technology is finally released for public consumption in a competitive market where old style saws are an aberration rather than the standard you have a point.
Until then his style of driving the market will meet stiff resistance based on the way his so far failed at attempts to legislate via regulation instead of making the technology available to competitors for a reasonable royalty. That would have likely lead to people and machine producers clamoring toward the product.
That did not and from the way he is protecting his claims is not going to happen.
Frankly it is never one's intent to be injured and some will still be injured. Not nearly as many as the SS people suggest and that is one thing I personally cannot control.
That said there is still going to be resistance from those of us who have been able to work injury free with knowledge of the workings of a machine and the ability to execute without harm to oneself.
Right now you either buy in or you do not.
I do not, as apparently so do 80-90% of the owners of non SS saws...
someday it will be different until then well.......
JGrout, you must have never worked in an industry where intellectual property is important. I work in high tech. My team has invested over $20M over the past 3 years developing technology that changes the game for a part of our industry. We have over 19 patents filed and we will charge not cost plus, but instead we will charge what the market is willing to pay. If we charge too much we will sell too little. Charge too little and we will leave a ton of money and profit on the table. And oh, BTW, we work for the shareholders of the corporation and they want revenue and profit growth. If we were a charitable foundation then maybe we would charge what you would consider a "reasonable royalty". BTW, do you know what royalty Gass tried to charge before building his own line of saws? I read someone "on the internet" that it was 3-4%. Of course that was on the internet so who knows. Because we live in a free market and we have Intellectual property protection, Gass is free to risk as much investor money as he wants and if the invention works he can charge whatever the market will bear. You've had the same tired arguments for years here and anyone who has read a thread on SS knows how you feel. So don't buy his saw!
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I do not consider a Sawstop to be a hobbyist saw. A Grizzly yes even a mid priced Grizzly yes.
SS is well much the same as a high end Sage or Orvis fly fishing rod.... I do not have one, ( I have a 150.00 Cabela's 5 wt 9' ) my DD has a $$$ Sage rod. When we fish together I still manage to keep up with her fish for fish. We could debate the merits but it tends to get all muddled up in minutia and we could go on ad nauseum
It is pointless
Joe
Let us not seek the Republican Answer , or the Democratic answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept our own responsibility for the future John F. Kennedy
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02-07-2017, 11:32 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2017, 11:32 AM by JGrout.)
Quote:You've had the same tired arguments for years here and anyone who has read a thread on SS knows how you feel. So don't buy his saw!
Well I am batting 100% on that part
as for the rest of it: I work for me I have not even had an inkling that working in intellectual property was important. I freely share what projects I can with this forum with the idea that sharing is helpful. Have I made money here ? Yes, but it sure doesn't keep me in beer on the deck after 5PM
My apparently tiresome point being that I am actually attempting to persuade people that constructing something instead of buying tools that collect dust 5 days out of 6 ir 7 because you cannot afford the raw materials to make something then I am guilty as charged
If one feels the need to protect themselves and spend money to do so fine. Sadly all saws come with fully functional guards ( this is not about the appropriate use of a guard just the fact it has one and like it or not they all do function just some better than others)> If people would just look at the issue with some amount of critical thought and use what comes with the saw instead of pitching it in the corner and rationalizing that if Norm does it, so can I, the injury rate would drop to an even lower rate than Steve and I have been suggesting making the nanny saw mostly unnecessary.
Ergo the basis for a rational discussion becomes
tiresome....
Joe
Let us not seek the Republican Answer , or the Democratic answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept our own responsibility for the future John F. Kennedy
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JGrout, I have pointed out that the SawStop is as much a hobbyist saw as the Unisaw was in it's day. Thinking Grizzly , you are falling into a Walmartism.
A man of foolish pursuits
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I think that in all of the sawstop discussions that are online that everyone is missing the forrest for the trees.
If you invent something and patent it you should have the right to sell it at whatever price you want, when you want and what market you want. You can license it to others to use or you can sell it outright.
But trying to force legislation that would demand the use of a sole source/propriety system that excludes all other manufacturers is wrong. This is the "tree" view.
The "forrest" view is that Steve Gass also holds patents on a sawstop technology on other tools like the:
bandsaw http://www.google.com/patents/US20060000337
mitresaw https://www.google.com/patents/US2006023...sQ6AEIPzAF
From patent description: "may be any of a variety of different machines adapted for cutting workpieces, such as wood, including a table saw, miter saw (chop saw), radial arm saw, circular saw, band saw, jointer, planer, etc"
Had he been successful in the getting legislation passed to require sawstop tech on tablesaws and pushed it all states to become law, he would have opened up Pandora's box on all the remaining powertools, as his patents are broad enough in description to allow it.
R
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(02-07-2017, 12:42 PM)Downwindtracker2 Wrote: JGrout, I have pointed out that the SawStop is as much a hobbyist saw as the Unisaw was in it's day. Thinking Grizzly , you are falling into a Walmartism.
As a WW making a living at your " hobby" comparing a unisaw to a SS is akin to my fly rod analogy. You might make the comparison to a PM66 of today. my point still stands other than the nannny feature SS is not a reasonable substitution for what you lose to own a SS
Grizzly tools are not Walmart quality in fact today they are a step or two above many imported saws including today's Delta there they may well be 4 or 5 steps up the ladder
Wal mart quality would be similar to Harbor Freight
JMO
Let us not seek the Republican Answer , or the Democratic answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept our own responsibility for the future John F. Kennedy
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(02-07-2017, 05:10 AM)AlanBienlein Wrote: My local Woodcraft can't keep sawstops in stock. He commented that no sooner he gets them in and put in the back he's pulling them right back out. Amazing considering the first saws you see in the window are the powermatics.
You do know that Woodcraft is a hobbyist store. A true equipment supply house may not have the same results with the amount of Sawstops that they sell.
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An older datapoint but a local commercial tool distributor in the Phoenix area (you have to have a tax id and a commercial account to buy there) said maybe 5 years ago that they were selling SS 5 to 1 over PM saws. They said that insurance companies were making it cost prohibitive not to have a SS.
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OldGuy, thanks for posting that. I knew it, but have never injected it into the conversation. From my side of the street, he stops being a Capitalist, and more like a Commie when you add his aim is total domination. Choice is, and always will be a good thing in any market, lest it leaves people out, who cannot afford a $1500 portable saw, when they are available as little as 99 bux. Plus it is ridiculous to consider a 500 add on, on a 99 buck saw. This is the world Gass wants. I find it amusing anyone in America thinks that is how it should be.
Worst thing they can do is cook ya and eat ya 
GW
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I get that people are upset with Gass' business practices and won't buy his product because of it. I really don't understand how you can call his invention a "finger nanny". The fact that he invented something that will stop the blade within 5 milliseconds of coming in contact with human flesh is pretty amazing. Sure, maybe you feel that it's unnecessary if you practice good safety precautions but that doesn't take away the technology he created. Calling it a "finger nanny" just comes across as juvenile, IMO.
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