Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news

[JGrout]

Joe, the simple truth is that vast majority of TS don't have guards on them. We may debate on why, you are suggesting macho, my feeling is the accountant who designed the guards should be run over the saw a few times. You are very correct about an attitude of disregard for safety . Personally, I think you are tilting at windmills trying to change that.  So we end up with stuff like the SawStop.

We should stop and have a beer, we can order ten for the table a couple of times.

I am all for the beer as long as it is after shop time and no one cuts off any fingers

[JGrout]

It appears you are not doing any reading either . 

The how is simple you put the guards on and leave them on........ you threw it away? Buy or build one you can live  with.... BORK makes a fully functional one, and there are a few that you can make that are way better then the OEM units that not hard to find on line either in you tube or elsewhere. The issue still is this: it is much harder to encourage them actually install them  

The list of times the guard is removed is very short. you want me to post that as well? 

OK 

fully buried blade in the work as in resawing wider stock than the blade it is capable of cutting in one pass 

Certain bevel cuts on RT saws using an auxiliary fence as a standoff device. Said device should however have some sort of protective cover in place that is easily accommodated 

There will be some who will argue for others and it is late so all I can do is address them as they appear 

Again the issue is changing the consensus of the majority to actually put the guards back on the saws..

You want to help I am looking for willing volunteers, which I am having a hard time recruiting 

I am sure it is the message  

Joe

[rschissler]

It appears you are not doing any reading either . 

The how is simple you put the guards on and leave them on........ you threw it away? Buy or build one you can live  with.... BORK makes a fully functional one, and there are a few that you can make that are way better then the OEM units that not hard to find on line either in you tube or elsewhere. The issue still is this: it is much harder to encourage them actually install them  

The list of times the guard is removed is very short. you want me to post that as well? 

OK 

fully buried blade in the work as in resawing wider stock than the blade it is capable of cutting in one pass 

Certain bevel cuts on RT saws using an auxiliary fence as a standoff device. Said device should however have some sort of protective cover in place that is easily accommodated 

There will be some who will argue for others and it is late so all I can do is address them as they appear 

Again the issue is changing the consensus of the majority to actually put the guards back on the saws..

You want to help I am looking for willing volunteers, which I am having a hard time recruiting 

I am sure it is the message  

Joe

I think the reason why a lot of guards are removed and not put back on is that the design of them makes them a pain to put back on.  The type where you have to remove the insert, probably lower the blade out of the way, and fumble with some bolts until it is on straight, I can understand why people don't want to use them.

Whereas, the overhead guards are great, it only take two seconds to reset in place.  Just kidding, but maybe the government could step in, skip the flesh sensing debate and mandate easy to use guards like overhead guards?  I'm sure people would be against that too, though.

[JGrout]

I think the reason why a lot of guards are removed and not put back on is that the design of them makes them a pain to put back on.  The type where you have to remove the insert, probably lower the blade out of the way, and fumble with some bolts until it is on straight, I can understand why people don't want to use them.

Whereas, the overhead guards are great, it only take two seconds to reset in place.  Just kidding, but maybe the government could step in, skip the flesh sensing debate and mandate easy to use guards like overhead guards?  I'm sure people would be against that too, though.

IME most people are just opposed to guarding a saw blade for whatever reason.

And as I indicated there are only a few situations where the guard even has to be removed. 

but that is liable to be as big a point of contention as the real need for SS technology.

[Bach1750]

No details to implement your plan, though.  You just keep saying over and over, it's simple, "you put the guards on and leave them on".  You're right, that is simple... as a concept.  The practical application of that concept, however, is a pipe dream.  It will never happen, it's just your fantasy.

You cannot make people behave how you want them to, even if you could contact each and every TS user and try to convince them.  People will use the saw how they want, some with knowledge, some without, some with experience, some without etc...

You seem to think you have made some headway by pointing to +5500 views, but please see post #154 right after yours that describes a "somewhat safe way" to make free hand cuts in the field.  Do you think this person has been convinced by your posts?  Try dividing 5500 by let's say 10,000,000 users and see what percentage you get.  Yea, deep inroads.

Since you can't make individual operators use a TS in a safer way, you must acknowledge that the only way to reduce amputation and injury is to make TS manufacturers build their saws to be safer.  If you want to create a "nanny brigade" going shop to shop "reeducating" TS users, be my guest, but remember you may advise only and will have no authority.

You cannot legislate how saws are used, but you can legislate how they are designed and made.  You may not like that, but as long as TS guards are removable and the exposed blades capable of cutting fingers off,  fingers will be cut off.  You don't care about that though, your real purpose posting on SS threads is to deny Steve Gass, a person you don't even know, royalties for his invention because he used tactics (that any other inventor/entrepreneur would use) you don't "like".

The irony of this is that, if your endless posts railing against SS had any influence, they would produce the exact opposite results you say you want.  Your simple, but unenforceable plan would not reduce injury, but in fact lead to continued amputation and injury.

Please continue to post on guard safety, this is helpful, but unless you can show that a flesh sensing technology is redundant in the actual use of table saws, please stop arguing that it is.

[JGrout]

so you are convinced that the attitudes will not change and I cannot change them? 

Now who is endorsing having fingers cut off? 

The concept is simple, and the execution is not. 

that is what we agree on 

 By continuing to attack the simple message you are endorsing exactly what you want to eliminate. 

And Gass has a noose around the neck of the manufacturers until the patents run out. 

Even then it is YEARS before the last finger cutting monsters are retired.....

I don't get it you say the two issues are not common and yet 

Bazinga here we are


edit to add: I noticed no one went after him including myself. There is no way to convince 100% of the readers to do one darn thing. I set my goal at just making people think about change for now. If they refuse AND choose against SS you and I or even a full contingent of safety promoters will do nothing to affect the way they think.

There will always be one who is invincible he would be the hold my beer and watch guy no one will ever change that

As to the redundancy of flesh sensing technology being redundant I have but it appears you once again passed right over the post explaining why it works. in fact I know it works personally and in working shops that followed safety guidelines. Sadly I cannot teach you to read; that you have to do yourself.

[Johnbro]

I just talked to the owner of a large commercial lumber yard here in the PNW, one who specializes in selling tools and lumber into the marine trades. I asked him about SawStop and he said the following:

"We sell hundreds of them." 
Q: Compared to the other saws you carry, how many do you sell?
"We don't sell any other saws anymore. We don't have any other ones on the floor. If somebody wants a Powermatic we can get it for them, but why would they want one?"


This matches my experience at Eastside Saw, where I bought mine. They have a PCS and an ICS on the floor, no other cabinet saws. (They do have portable contractor saws like Bosch.) The local Rockler has a PCS, no other TS. The local Woodcraft (a very large store) has 2 SS and one Laguna TS. 

Given that business owners are motivated to carry inventory that moves, not sits, it is a testimony that SawStop is the saw people want--that's why they are on the floor in these stores and not Delta, Powermatic, or other brands. I did see a mention on the interwebs that SS was the top selling cabinet saw, but there was no substantiating data so I have to discount.

[fixtureman]

I wonder how many Grizzly saws are sold compared to Sawstop

[JGrout]

it may be the top selling saw today mainly because of the insurance issues surrounding the others. 

So if indeed they are selling thousands that means they should get the last non SS saw off the floor in about 2050 

I don't think anyone has even a clue as to how many non SS saws exist......

[JGrout]

I wonder how many Grizzly saws are sold compared to Sawstop

I bet they run neck and neck.