Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news

[Johnbro]

I bet they run neck and neck.

One difference between you and me is I don't confuse speculation with information.

[JGrout]

One difference between you and me is I don't confuse speculation with information.

And I believe a salesman as far as I can throw them. 

Get sales reports that are verifiable and I will believe you 

Otherwise your claim is no different than mine.

[Admiral]

C'mon Joe, don't be so contrary . . .

[Bach1750]

I had to think for a minute before responding, but here goes.

so you are convinced that the attitudes will not change and I cannot change them?
Yes, I'm convinced of both of these, but also that it's wrong to think table saw accidents can be attributed to attitudes.

Now who is endorsing having fingers cut off?
Ummm.... I don"t know, who?

The concept is simple, and the execution is not. 

that is what we agree on
No, I emphatically do not agree with you on this.  The concept is simple, the execution is impossible.  It must be nice to have stars in your eyes.

By continuing to attack the simple message you are endorsing exactly what you want to eliminate.
I'm not attacking your simple message.  But only if your message is that every table saw should be operated with a guard/splitter/pawls assembly on.  I support this message.  Let me say that again, I support this message.  I am attacking your message that flesh sensing technology is useless because it's redundant.  I'm a realist about how table saws are actually used.

And Gass has a noose around the neck of the manufacturers until the patents run out.
Why do you care?  I don't.  It's his technology.  Let other manufacturers develop their own technology.  That they're late to the game is their own fault.  You should forget about Gass and evaluate the tool on it's own merits.  If you did, you would understand it's value and importance in the marketplace.

Even then it is YEARS before the last finger cutting monsters are retired.....
Yup, nothing anybody can do about that.  But the answer isn't to keep making more finger cutting monsters.  If you're in a hole, stop digging.

I don't get it you say the two issues are not common and yet 

Bazinga here we are
I didn't say they are not common, I said they have to be debated separately.

edit to add: I noticed no one went after him including myself. There is no way to convince 100% of the readers to do one darn thing. I set my goal at just making people think about change for now. If they refuse AND choose against SS you and I or even a full contingent of safety promoters will do nothing to affect the way they think.

There will always be one who is invincible he would be the hold my beer and watch guy no one will ever change that
You're wrong here.  Steve Gass has already changed this.  With a SawStop, the "hold my beer and watch guy" would wake up in his own bed with a hangover, not in a hospital bed.  He would have a chance to reflect on his mistake and change his behavior, maybe even with the help of your simple message.  It's this kind of mistake, and many, many much more innocent mistakes where the SS will change lives.  It's all not about changing attitudes.

As to the redundancy of flesh sensing technology being redundant I have but it appears you once again passed right over the post explaining why it works. in fact I know it works personally and in working shops that followed safety guidelines. Sadly I cannot teach you to read; that you have to do yourself.
I wish you would stick to sharing woodworking wisdom, you're good at this.  But please stay away from political commentary, it's not you're strong suit.

[srv52761]

JGrout,  I have been trying to follow your line of reasoning, but have to admit I am falling short.  It doesn't seem that you are being consistent. You are arguing that if one uses all the guards and follows the prescribed safety rules then the skin sensing technology is redundant and unnecessary.  
But then you used as a rationale in one of your responses:

......Just think that when my ill placed fingers touched the properly mounted guard I was reminded before I went any further of the fact that round thingy under that guard is spinning fast and I had best move my fingers before  I LOSE THEM 

......The same thing applies with the guard:  If the supplied guard is blocking further advancement of your hand or fingers....

I took this from the Unisaw manual (http://www.mikestools.com/download/Delta...36-842.pdf )

14. KEEP ARMS, HANDS, AND FINGERS away from the blade.
15. NEVER have any part of your body in line with the path of the saw blade.(from one of the first pages)....

Then later:
....If the ripped work is less than 4 inches wide, a push stick should always be used to complete the feed, as shown in Fig. 79. The push stick can easily be made from scrap material as explained in the section “CONSTRUCTING A PUSH STICK.” When ripping material under 2 inches in width, a flat pushboard is a valuable accessory since ordinary type sticks may interfere with the blade guard...

Ok, then, if you followed all the safety instructions, your ill placed fingers would never get close enough to touch the guard and the guard would never block further advancement of your hand or fingers.  So, doesn't that make the guard redundant? If everyone followed those safety instructions then there would be no need for a guard.  I know several carpenters that think this very way- no guards, and they still have all ten fingers.  As a previous poster on this thread said, they use copious and varied pushsticks,  pushshoes, pushboards, pushblocks... They never let their fingers get close to the blade.

But Delta (and presumably every other saw manufacturer) understands that there are people, like you and me and the people you refer to, that sometimes cut corners for expediency. So, sometimes, as you admit, we  don't always follow best practice, and your fingers do get too close; close enough to touch the guard. So, the guards are needed for general safety. 

But how can you argue for the redundant guards, but not for the redundant technology?

WRT Gass.  I disagree with the term "force" that many used.  He is presenting his argument.  Others will present theirs.  The regulating groups will make the determination.  How does he force them to do something?

[Tapper]

And I believe a salesman as far as I can throw them. 

Get sales reports that are verifiable and I will believe you 

Otherwise your claim is no different than mine.

C'mon Joe, don't be so contrary . . .

If he weren't, he'd have nothing to say! Been away for a while but it looks like old Joe has taken over this thread with his drivel (as usual) and stirred up a hornet's nest of opposition to his ill-fated views on SS - way to go guys!!! 




HGH,

Doug

[JGrout]

If he weren't, he'd have nothing to say! Been away for a while but it looks like old Joe has taken over this thread with his drivel (as usual) and stirred up a hornet's nest of opposition to his ill-fated views on SS - way to go guys!!! 




HGH,

Doug

so you consider protecting your fingers on ANY saw is Drivel.

What a guy and what a fabulous message. Exactly the one I expect from you 

[JGrout]

JGrout,  I have been trying to follow your line of reasoning, but have to admit I am falling short.  It doesn't seem that you are being consistent. You are arguing that if one uses all the guards and follows the prescribed safety rules then the skin sensing technology is redundant and unnecessary.  
But then you used as a rationale in one of your responses:


I took this from the Unisaw manual (http://www.mikestools.com/download/Delta...36-842.pdf )

Ok, then, if you followed all the safety instructions, your ill placed fingers would never get close enough to touch the guard and the guard would never block further advancement of your hand or fingers.  So, doesn't that make the guard redundant? If everyone followed those safety instructions then there would be no need for a guard.  I know several carpenters that think this very way- no guards, and they still have all ten fingers.  As a previous poster on this thread said, they use copious and varied pushsticks,  pushshoes, pushboards, pushblocks... They never let their fingers get close to the blade.

But Delta (and presumably every other saw manufacturer) understands that there are people, like you and me and the people you refer to, that sometimes cut corners for expediency. So, sometimes, as you admit, we  don't always follow best practice, and your fingers do get too close; close enough to touch the guard. So, the guards are needed for general safety. 

But how can you argue for the redundant guards, but not for the redundant technology?

WRT Gass.  I disagree with the term "force" that many used.  He is presenting his argument.  Others will present theirs.  The regulating groups will make the determination.  How does he force them to do something?

Without putting too much into your example using the unisaw instruction manual I have a bone to pick with the author of the statements made in that section. What it amounts to is a de facto admission that people are not using the safety devices supplied with the saw..

It was most likely written then rewritten to limit the liability of the manufacturer from the very thing that got the guy in MA a huge settlement for using a saw improperly. I do not care how old the manual was or is it is lawyer speak and another example of a company covering their collective A$$ 

I still stand by the fact that a properly assembled and provided guard splitter and kickback device is more than adequate to prevent injuries without the addition of another device.  Guards are not redundant they are in fact the "first line of defense in protecting against an injury" for instance: using a push stick shoe or other device with the use of the supplied guard and the stick/shoe / whatever moves in a way that throws off your control and your hand migrates toward the covered with a guard blade what is going to happen? Most likely you may have to clean your drawers but otherwise  nothing>   Why?   It is simple, the blade is covered. You cannot stuff your hand into a covered blade. The same with any other operation;people slip on errant sawdust (even over a SS) and from the amount of "my saw saved me today when the cartridge fired" posts I have seen since the first ones  hit the market I have to conclude that the guard was not the first line of defense, the finger nanny was. Seems like to me the dumbest thing I ever heard when one knows the guard should be installed and functioning to begin with.

I will say it once more: A guard and the related items to mount the guard and prevent kickback are the first line of defense against a potential  injury  

If you own a Sawstop or any other saw and fail to install the supplied guard, riving knife and kickback assembly you have removed the first line of defense.

And from the tenure of the responses this is just fine with all of you, who needs the first line of defense when you have a second one.


One has to get past this, if you just cannot see just how silly you are when all you need to do is apply the supplied equipment and use it responsibly 

Oh and Admiral I am not getting over myself, this is important and so widely overlooked or ignored I cannot understand how anyone could possibly think I need to get over myself. This is about the operator's safety what is so wrong with pointing it out  


It is clear as day and it is so stupid simple but you have let your personal experiences and prejudices cloud the very judgements and opinions that have driven this discussion 

Time to wake up and look around. 


I would really prefer to just be done, alas that is not going to happen is it?

[Bach1750]

There are many things that can be argued/discussed regarding flesh sensing technology (FST) generally and SS's in particular.  For example, should FST be mandated on all table saws, or, what are the implications for FST in other power tools?  These, and many others I'm sure, are reasonable and valid questions that could and probably should be talked about here.

Ironically, the two that surface (and resurface) most often are the ones that have the least merit.  First, that FST is useless because it's redundant, and second that Steve Gass is bad because he went to the cpsc with his technology, therefore, SS's are bad.

Someone earlier on actually wrote that they really wanted to buy a SS but wouldn't because of Steve Gass.  I think this is the only literal account I've ever encountered of "cutting of ones nose to spite ones face",... just insert "fingers" and "hand" in the appropriate places.

[Tapper]

so you consider protecting your fingers on ANY saw is Drivel.

What a guy and what a fabulous message. Exactly the one I expect from you 

Typical response from you - your words, not mine. It looks like others who share my position on SS have come to the game. Their arguments make perfect sense, unlike those offered by the opposition. I could not care less what you expect of me.

Doug