Advice on guest full bath remodel

[sleepy hollow]

I have gutted my guest bath on the second floor.  Kids are gone so I can take my time.  It is 8 feet wide and 10 feet long on vanity/toilet side, but 99" on the tub/separate shower side (linen closet cut out faces hallway outside).  Of course the builder should have reversed this to make more room for the shower.  Don't need an 84" double vanity.  

As it is there is room for a 5 ft tub and 36" square shower, which is what was there before gutting.  Builder had put a full floor to ceiling partition between shower and tub to allow the shower head to be on an interior wall (no freeze) pointing away from the entry door (no leaks).  I tore down the partition, and really like the idea of keeping the room more open and allowing more light into the shower.  Was dark before, basically a separate little room/booth.  

LOML wants both bath and separate shower.  Non-negotiable.  Her wish is my command.  She does not want to swap bathtub and shower because she does not want bath across from toilet (far wall relative to door).  Her wish, etc...

Can't move the toilet as the wall behind it has the waste stack.  Would have to put a 7 foot 3" line through 3 floor joists to move it.  I don't think that would be wise.  I have 24"OC I-Joists, so tiling is enough of a challenge.  

Based on all of these limits, then, I can see no way to plumb the shower head/valve without building a tallish partition where the previous one was to accommodate the shower head riser pipe.  But I think it will look better to keep it below ceiling height.  Benefits: ambient light gets in, moisture dissipates better (will install nice panasonic exhaust fan to help vent the whole room much more effectively as well). 

So, after all of this, here are my two questions:

1.  Assuming my description is good enough to understand more or less what I am doing, anyone got any better ideas?  I am all ears.  Thank you. 

2. Is there anything special I need to do to brace or stiffen such a tall "partial" partition?  Obviously the top plate will not be fastened to the roof truss members, and so will not be as stiff.  I plan to tile all sides of the partition with tub side tiled maybe only part way up.  Not sure yet. Tub will not include shower head this time, it is just a standard alcove 60" soaker.

Thanks as always for the great advice I have gotten here over more years than I care to count.

[Mr_Mike]

Can you draw it out or provide pictures?

Unless this is a corner room, you have one more wall for the shower head. Make the partition tempered glass and go to the ceiling. Allows light and gives structural support. Put plumbing on opposite wall. You can also run the plumbing in the outside wall, just insulate it well on the back side, not in front.

Given your space, can you do a corner tub giving room for a bigger shower? 36" showers are tight.

Tile on 24" I joists should work. Use DITRA on the floor. I've done it with 18" travertine without issue. 16" Ijoists on 24 ft span.

[Robert Adams]

Hard for me to visualize but... Its similar to what we will be going to one of ours. On that partition wall you can drop it down to 4 or 5' and glass above it. 

  If your shower head has to go in that wall how about running it up and straight down from the ceiling. That pipe can easily be super insulated if needed or the right fixture that drains the pipe when done showering. I am planning for oirs to be in the ceiling.


      Builders love to do 24"oc walls and floors now because its cheaper and the energy guys like it because of less thermal bridging but for real world use its a royal pain. You can add another layer of plywood and use a product like ditra which is a roll of plastic that costs more than the tile and mud on top of it. There are other brands that are more economical but harder to source if you dont have a commercial tile supplier.  


            Im with you on the not needing the long double vanity. I dont get the need for two sinks because you end up with no counter space and thats what the other half needs is lots of countertop to lay out all her paint prep material and power tools she uses every morning. A second sink takes up valuable square footage.

[sleepy hollow]

Thanks, gents, for your suggestions.  

I do plan to use DITRA.  Have used it before.  The new DITRA XL stuff is rated for my joists with only ¾" plywood subfloor.  

Will post pics when I get a chance.  Sorry for the confusing prose description.  

As for the ceiling shower head, I am loathe to put any plumbing in an exterior wall or the ceiling since it then is effectively in the attic.  I realize insulating it or pitching the shower head supply pipe down are the way to go if this is being done, but in such a small shower, I think it is not the best place for the head anyway.  Also, I failed to mention that I may want a fixed head and removable spray arm.  I am 6'3'' and LOML is 5', so we must always account for the extremes


Everything I have read discourages placing plumbing in an exterior wall.  I prefer not to worry about it myself, though I live near DC so our winters are not all that cold except once in awhile.  Not like ND by any means.

Was planning to build a knee wall and then glass up from there, but the shower head dilemma has since got me re-thinking this.  Also looked at 54" tub to get a bigger shower.  But I think it is too small.  Just no easy way to resolve all of these competing issues.

[Snipe Hunter]

Can't move the toilet as the wall behind it has the waste stack.  Would have to put a 7 foot 3" line through 3 floor joists to move it.  I don't think that would be wise.  I have 24"OC I-Joists, so tiling is enough of a challenge. 
 

Wise move. Not sure that there's any way to cut that much out of a joist have have it remotely strong or pass code for that matter.
You can put in a glass wall above a short partition. Then do the plumbing in the wall it ties into. Install a shower head with a flexible stainless hose and tie it into that plumbing. Then mount the hose/head clamp on the glass wall where you want the head to be.

[PaulJohnstone]

You are under pretty strong restraints here.
Honestly, if I was in the situation you were in, I would have left the partition wall between the tub and shower in, since your wife is not allowing you to relocate anything.   Just put in a really bright "shower safe" light above the shower, that works wonders. 

A real "outside the box" idea would be to put a sink in the 3' area that the shower is in now.  Then replace the existing double vanity with a single vanity and then put the shower (or maybe the tub ) in the space freed up on the toilet/sink wall (since you only have one sink there).. You could enclose the toilet in its own little closet, use part of the closet wall to run the shower head on. Then put glass between the sink and shower..  But the problem with that is you are probably going to have to run a larger drain line to handle the shower.  I can not remember the minimum required for a shower, but it is larger than the minimum required for a sink.. so is it worth it? I don't know..

[Cub_Cadet_GT]

Wise move. Not sure that there's any way to cut that much out of a joist have have it remotely strong or pass code for that matter.
You can put in a glass wall above a short partition. Then do the plumbing in the wall it ties into. Install a shower head with a flexible stainless hose and tie it into that plumbing. Then mount the hose/head clamp on the glass wall where you want the head to be.

This^^^

Or, you could do an overhead "rain shower" head from the ceiling and place plumbing controls on side wall (Assuming this is not external wall). This would eliminate any plumbing on the half wall.

[Bob10]

So I have read the other ideas and like the idea of the ceiling shower but seems you don't.  So could you manage a wall with some type of stylish tile or stone to face the wall with the plumbing and use glass brick for the portion above the shower valve?.  I bought a shower valve from Chicago faucet about 15 years back that mounted to the wall and had solid pipe come out of the top to the shower head also allowed for adding a hose if you felt the need.  I adopted it to use on a clawfoot tub.  I used chromed brass pipe to achieve the height I wanted.  None of it was inexpensive but it is solid as a rock.



Something like this 






edited to add this it is closer to what I did but not sure of the quality
https://deabath.com/Sinks_and_Sink_Drain...alves.html

[sleepy hollow]

Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions.  Well, LOML has finally understood the tradeoffs in the shower/bath placement options.  She actually suggested swapping the tub and shower and we are considering a 4.5' tub to make more room for the shower.  This would put the shower against interior walls, and we can mount the tub filler in the middle of the tub if we want it left-drain (bather's back to the shower).  Right-drain could be either in the knee wall between shower and bath or in the middle.  

This arrangement also has the added benefit of introducing more space to the front area of the toilet since it is now across from the 30" wide tub and not the 36" wide shower.  So, the room flows better.  

Thanks again.  I will try to post some photos of progress as soon as our planning is done.  I am happy to take a long time planning since once we decide, it's hard to make changes.  Took a year to plan the kitchen remodel and we still are happy with it after 14 years or so.  

Let's see, deck took about 6 months to plan.  Basement took about a year maybe more, then 18 months to build, but it has a full bath and home theater.  Been happy with all of them.  Where does the time go?  I guess I know.  

But this forum has been my go-to forum for a very long time.  I really appreciate the value here with this community, and the generosity in terms of sharing knowledge and offering assistance.

You faceless friends have saved my bacon more than once.

[Mr_Mike]

You would still be way ahead if you supplied more data for us to review. Pictures and measured drawings help immensely. Including drawing adjoining rooms.