Tablesaw Choices - I went Minimax SC3

[Pondracer]

So on the morning of the 4th I look it over in the crate and all around.  It seems fine.  I had sent a full set of pictures to Pauline and Sam the evening of 1/3 and I waited to hear from them.  Nothing on the 4th.  Nothing on the 5th.  On the night of the 5th I sent more emails saying hey - I would appreciate a response.  At this point the saw is still in the crate.  We load it up and take it to the shop to be unpacked.  It was one of the super cold days here in Chicago.  I hired a forklift to come to my house because we don't transport the one at work.  The operator who came out was a wizard with it.  Meticulous and actually cared about what we were doing all while working outside in 10F weather.  Plus the guys from where I work were also great. I just mention it because its a pleasure to work with people who care about what they do.




We tear down the crate and surprise, its not even strapped down.  The whole saw was being held in place by plastic feet and wooden wedges.  Oh, and they zip-tied the electric cord to a concrete ballast block.



But there isn't a mark on the machine.  But as we look it over we realize that all of the fence parts are packed under the saw.  So we end up strapping the saw and lifting it up enough to slide out the parts.  Like I said, my forklift operator was a wizard.

[Pondracer]

Hi Pondracer - looking forward to your future posts - but just for my understanding (and others who may not be familiar w/ the Euro sliding saws), is the machine being discussed the one shown below or are there other models?  Thanks - Dave

Yes - thats the one!

[Pondracer]

The bubble wrap is torn, and some extrusions are squashed.  The dado insert is totally gone.  But the good news is the main saw looks fine.

[Pondracer]

Unwrapping and arranging the parts I take pics of the damage.



I don't want to bore you with a bunch of damaged parts pics but here are a few just so you know what I am looking at.

[Pondracer]

Cleaning the beast up I realize that moving this around with a pallet jack isn't going to be a great idea.  This is 90 degrees from the position it normally occupies, and in my shop the movement is front to back.  I push everything back to spray, and everything forward to use the band saw.  So I need a mobile base.  But that brings up the question, what do I do if SCM Group screws me?  Casters, plus metal, plus welding, plus paint will put a mobile base around $1000.  But I go ahead and draw up a design and start working with a local welder/fabricator.

Sam calls me promptly Monday morning (1/8) and tells me to contact a guy named Billy in Service who will take care of me.  He also gives me an ominous warning, that things are screwed up because of SCM's new policy to not do anything for a customer until a shipping claim is paid.  A call to Billy gives me a cold, couldn't care less response of basically its up to me to file a shipping claim.  Though I have no business relationship with the shipper, never chose the shipper, never paid the shipper - somehow its on me.  Billy casually tells me SCM has shipping claims more than a year old unpaid from this shipper.  Nice.  I ask Billy for a list of parts and prices so I know what is going on and how big this problem is.  I email him a full set of pictures.

Billy goes into a black hole and I never hear from him again.  Ever.  I leave voice mail day after day. 

I post a pic on Facebook and tag SCM Group - North America.  They respond by telling me they will contact me to help me file a shipping claim.  They never do.

On 1/12 as I leave my daily voice mail I get a guy named Andy.  Andy can help me.  Andy wants a full set of pictures that will go to their customer advocate and a guy named Pete.  I send them over and wait until end of day the following Monday with no email or call.  I put together two letters and prepare to send them, but Tuesday I get a call from Pete.  He understands my problem, promises to get a full list of parts and prices.  I explain I am not looking to gouge SCM, I can live with scratches in paint, but the aluminum extrusions are important because I bought the thing to make accurate cuts.  Georgia gets buried in ice on Wednesday, but he went into work anyway and called me to let me know things were messed up at the office, but he promised he would get me what I need.  I don't hear from him the rest of the week so at the very end of the day Friday after they close I leave a nice voice mail asking for a call or email to just let me know where we are.

On 1/22 (Monday) I wait all day but nothing, so I leave another voice mail.  Pete goes into a black hole and I never hear from him again.  Ever.

The night of 1/23 I call my credit card company and explain the entire situation.  They are great.  They explain to me it is SCM Group's responsibility to deliver the Minimax SC-3 saw in good condition.  I don't have "a business relationship with the shipper", their exact words.  They ask me what I want to do and I say wait it out for now.  Once I dispute the charge I am the proud owner of a saw made in Italy with only one source for parts and service and they will never talk to me again.  I call Sam.  He's sympathetic, but can't do much.

Towards the end of last week I get a call from their customer advocate Nelson.  His first words are, "I am sorry but you are not going to be happy about this".  I can hardly wait.  He says they have 4 of the 6 parts at the warehouse.  They have decided to file a claim with the shipper, and they will not ship me any parts until that claim is resolved.  The total for all the parts is $1700. I forget to ask if that is their cost or full retail. The other two parts have no ETA, but he will call me on Friday 2/2/2018 and maybe they will know more by then.  I tell him how about you call me by end of day 1/26 or I call my credit card company.  He just laughs and says "thats a problem between you and your sales rep".  Interesting.  He never calls but he does ask for my shipping address.  Something tells me that should I suspend payment Sam gets screwed.  Bet Sam doesn't know that.

Friday night I leave one star reviews on Facebook for the company, and post my thoughts on the whole mess to their Facebook page in Italy.  I handle marketing for a large motorcycle company, I understand digital, rep management etc.  I just want my parts, and my saw to work.  For $6.5k, this is what I want.  I like Sam, he seems like a nice enough Texan sort of guy.  He sort of explained to me that as far as these Minimax sales go for SCM, I am a small, small fish.  They don't really care about me, they want to sell $100k+ machines.  Well - I will certainly keep that in mind in the future.

For now I went ahead with the mobile base design and its done.  I pick it up tomorrow and take it over to the painter.

[jteneyck]

That is one sorry tale, PR.  So sorry to read that.  I'll bet Sam is right that MiniMax's focus is on commercial and industrial customers.  But if they are willing to sell machines to a hobbiest they should be prepared to respond to problems in the same way they would with a commercial or industrial customer. 

I have a MiniMax J/P.  Bought it used in essentially perfect condition.  It's a terrific machine and will meet my needs forever.  But I sure hope I never need any parts for it!  Your experience reinforces that if I ever want another Euro machine it, too, will be a used one.  

I wish you the best in getting the issues resolved.  Personally, I would have my credit card company stop payment and give SCM a reasonable time to make it right, or come and get their machine.  

John

[mdhills]

Really a bummer.

I've got a minimax bandsaw from a couple of years ago that I'm very happy with.  I really liked the rep (Erik) and have heard good things about Sam, as well, but the tool arrived without incident, so I never needed to test deeper into their customer service pipeline.  I'd hope that Sam would be able to advise how to escalate within the company, if he's not already advocating on your behalf.

Matt

[Tapper]

I'm totally sympathetic to your situation; my heart rate increased at least 50% just reading about this nightmare. However, I seem to be missing something here: Correct me if I'm wrong (won't be the first time) but you seem to be concerned about this sales guy "Sam" and the possibility that he will somehow be negatively affected by this transaction should it not complete (maybe lose his commission?). But it seems that he has  been of little help and has very little influence or power to help, so what good is he at this point?

If I would've paid $6 grand+ for a tablesaw and it was damaged in transit by the seller's shipper, and they were jerking me around about making it right to the tune of ~$1,700 in replacement parts, I'd have already pulled the plug on the credit card charge and asked them if they'd like their saw back or see me in court (fortunately I'm married to in-house counsel, another matter entirely). To me this is a very perfect example of "customer no-service" and you were right in your initial assessment reminding us that when you buy equipment like this, you are not only buying the item, you are also buying into a relationship (good or bad) with this company.

Please understand that I don't want to be controversial but to wait until the shipper makes them whole is an indicator of how SCM intends to treat their customers. I wish you luck in whatever you decide.

Doug

[Pondracer]

I'm totally sympathetic to your situation; my heart rate increased at least 50% just reading about this nightmare. However, I seem to be missing something here: Correct me if I'm wrong (won't be the first time) but you seem to be concerned about this sales guy "Sam" and the possibility that he will somehow be negatively affected by this transaction should it not complete (maybe lose his commission?). But it seems that he has  been of little help and has very little influence or power to help, so what good is he at this point?

If I would've paid $6 grand+ for a tablesaw and it was damaged in transit by the seller's shipper, and they were jerking me around about making it right to the tune of ~$1,700 in replacement parts, I'd have already pulled the plug on the credit card charge and asked them if they'd like their saw back or see me in court (fortunately I'm married to in-house counsel, another matter entirely). To me this is a very perfect example of "customer no-service" and you were right in your initial assessment reminding us that when you buy equipment like this, you are not only buying the item, you are also buying into a relationship (good or bad) with this company.

Please understand that I don't want to be controversial but to wait until the shipper makes them whole is an indicator of how SCM intends to treat their customers. I wish you luck in whatever you decide.

Doug

Well its not so much that I am concerned about Sam's well-being, but I find it interesting that somehow they place him in the path of my decision to dispute payment, and perhaps he might be a little more pro-active had he known that.  Or maybe its irrelevant.  The spif on my little SC3 probably isnt quite the same as the $100k industrial unit.

My ex is a corporate attorney at a major international firm and we are still on great terms, but over the years I learned from her that once it gets to the lawyers all hope is lost and everyone is screwed - except the lawyers.  The legal bill, added to what I would get selling off a basically new Minimax SC3 would get me an Altendorf if thats where this goes.  And all I want is a saw that works.

[jteneyck]

Well its not so much that I am concerned about Sam's well-being, but I find it interesting that somehow they place him in the path of my decision to dispute payment, and perhaps he might be a little more pro-active had he known that.  Or maybe its irrelevant.  The spif on my little SC3 probably isnt quite the same as the $100k industrial unit.

My ex is a corporate attorney at a major international firm and we are still on great terms, but over the years I learned from her that once it gets to the lawyers all hope is lost and everyone is screwed - except the lawyers.  The legal bill, added to what I would get selling off a basically new Minimax SC3 would get me an Altendorf if thats where this goes.  And all I want is a saw that works.

Time to call the president of SCM NA.  I hated it when customers called the president of our company.  Whoever he talked to was the most important customer we had - even when they weren't - and we spared no effort to resolve their problem so they would stop calling the president.  You want to be that customer at SCM.  Don't go up the chain of command.  Go to the top.   

John