What happened to Wenzolff and Sons?

[TraditionalToolworks]

This is how I interpret those instructions:

In the picture, you will notice that the plate is clamped in the vise at the toe. When the folded back is tapped home, it will be pulling on the plate putting it under 'tension' lengthwise, to ensure the plate is straight. If the plate was clamped at the heel and the back tapped home, it would be pushing on the plate putting it under compression lengthwise, which might result in a slight bow in the plate.

I think that is 'xactly how Mark wants you to interpret it.

Let's step back and try to understand this.

Metal does have a certain amount on tension that it can create, and is given a tensile strength for a specific piece of material. However you need so much force to reach such points that metal would actually stretch. Metal does stretch at some point, just before it breaks...it would probably take over 100,000 psi to reach that point where a saw plate could actually start to move.

Think of a bow saw, the frame is actually applying tension to keep the blade straight/flat. This doesn't happen with a folded back in any way, because it will just slip off when any amount of force is placed on either the plate or back at which point they will move. Ron Bontz mentioned that he experimented with creating a saw with a threaded rod, and if I understood him correctly this would use the rod to create tension, to keep the plate straight/flat. I don't know the details of what Ron found out, but the fact that Ron doesn't use this method to assemble his saws today pretty much tells us that there was no advantage found. If Ron reads this, please correct me if I'm wrong because we didn't discuss this very much.

A backsaw doesn't have a way to hold tension along the length of the plate. The back does apply tension across the thickness of the plate, so if a plate was warped and/or bowed it could provide that tension to hold it flat up near the top of the plate, where the back is...but how often do you see a damaged saw plate like that? it is hard for the back to transfer tension through the plate, vertically, to the tooth line, so I have the opinion that a back is limited to what it can flatten out at the tooth line where it is primarily needed. The primary function is to provide the stiffness to hold the plate while you saw.

Now think about the slotted back. The back holds the plate securely, the plate can't actually move. This is true if the back is crimped onto the plate, most sawmakers squeeze the back with a vise. I do that and I have talked to others that do just to be safe. Most use some type of Loctite, I use blue as you can heat it and separate the back from the plate in the worst case. However, there is far less chance that you would need to do that, since the back and plate don't move as they do with a folded back. You drop the saw off the bench accidentally, no problem. Nothing to "retension". This really means very little at the end of the day, as you can reset the folded back on a saw and that is what has been done since the folded back has been used on saws.
However if it works for you, the slotted back saves some of that maintenance.

I know that I can take a ball peen and make the tooth line irregular where the back won't have any effect on it. The same can be done with both a slotted or folded back. At that point there's a problem with the plate, period. This is a pretty rare occurrence, especially with modern backsaws. But this is where the most damage could be done to a plate...and the folded back will not be able to help that any better than a slotted back. That is a catastrophic failure, IMO. Most people take pretty good care of their backsaws, some worship dovetails saws like some type of spiritual figure...and there are more dovetail saws today than ever, often one of the first saws anyone buys...
This is to say this is probably not a problem even if you ruin a saw, get another one. Hang the damaged one on the wall and wear it like a badge of honor...

This long winded post is to say, there is nothing wrong with a folded back. It just requires a bit more maintenance if the back moves. Some people just won't like the modern look of a slotted back, placing more emphasis on the more traditional folded back. Some irony that my company is Traditional Toolworks yet I advocate the non-traditional method...but life is full of ironies.  
But this long winded post was also to say, don't believe everything you read on the Internet, Abe Lincoln knew that...

Cheers,
Alan - I have always welcomed this dialog on folded vs. slotted back, there just seems a lot of FUD in the air around this topic. Tension is a poor descriptor to use, and that goes for the physical procedure of flattening out a blade with some dings in it. No matter what they call it, you will never get a piece of metal back to original condition by wacking it with a ball peen on an anvil, just keep that in mind. Certainly don't try to tension your testicles, that $#!T can hurt!

[Tony Z]

So what has happened to Mike Wenzloff?

[AHill]

That doesn't help the craft, and that's certainly not the only reason I don't care for Bob's [Smalser] style. I have met other people more willing to share that weren't so bitter about things, people that enjoyed helping people to do something without having to talk down to them.


Cheers,
Alan

Usually, when Smalser went crazy was when some newbie asserted he knew more about the craft than Bob.  I'm not excusing his approach to dressing down the newbie.  There are ways to be instructive and helpful without being disrespectful.  Derek Cohen is one good example of that.  I don't recall where Bob ever came across as saying "my way is the only right way," which happens every once-in-awhile on this (and other) forums.

[wmickley]

It is quite helpful when the back puts tension on the plate at the tooth line

[Mike Brady]

So what has happened to Mike Wenzloff?

Ditto

[Skip J.]

So what has happened to Mike Wenzloff?

Hello Tony;

Read the above talk about Bob Smalser... then:

One day Bob was talking about saw gullets and then MikeW chimed in with the opposite viewpoint.  After several shots across each other's bow, it was pretty clear that they were talking apples and oranges. Bob was talking from the viewpoint of cutting softwoods with big saws, and Mike was taking the side of smaller saws (like he made) for cutting fine hardwoods. While each would acknowledge the basics of the other's statements - still, each one held on to the idea that their way was the only way that was important, and quite strongly. 

Some harsh words were said here by both of them - back in the days when the mods allowed that.  I'm pretty sure that thread was frozen and then disappeared a few minutes later... The usual ending for "those" kinds of threads.

Bob never came back....

Mike drifted along for awhile here but posted less, and then as his business grew and his available time got short, and he had health problems... one day he never came back.

To step back a bit, each was defending his own personal way of doing business, more so than anything else. It really didn't have anything to do with saws, they had the bit in their teeth and just could not let it go..... The details got lost down in the weeds.

So the short answer is... saw gullets...

[Skip J.]

It is quite helpful when the back puts tension on the plate at the tooth line

Hello Warren;

Good to see you back in here again! Nice to have a real expert talk to us occasionally!

[TraditionalToolworks]

Some harsh words were said here by both of them - back in the days when the mods allowed that.  I'm pretty sure that thread was frozen and then disappeared a few minutes later... The usual ending for "those" kinds of threads.

Bob never came back....

Skip,

Thanks for taking the time to reply, this is a perfect example of some of the confrontations that Smalzer had with people, I have had similar with him. I always felt that he was very good at writing articles, but not so good at his people skills, so I saw it natural for him to write for magazines, or post his articles on Wiktor's site, et al. He might have had some on Woodcentral at one time, I'm not sure...but the point being that Bob was very good at articles on tools and procedures, and his writing was good.

Mike Wenzloff was quite a different person, very social, got along with most EVERYONE, but as you noted he didn't get along so well with Bob Smalzer. Mike attended many conferences, loved to talk with people, and of course share his knowledge of handsaws.


EDIT: I need to append this to my post, not sure if this is an appropriate place for it or not, but it is a general question about the Hand Tools forum here on Woodnet.

This forum is not nearly as active as it once was, where it was at one time one of the most popular hand tool forums for woodworking, there's not too much traffic here anymore. In looking over Sawmill Creek, it's much more active. I do have an account over there, but have never liked how the Keith Outen, nor Dave Anderson ran the forum. I see that Pete Taran is fairly active over there, he was absent from most online forums for at least a dozen years after he sold Independence.

There are a number of familiar names here, just not as many as there were...so what happened? What caused this change in tide?

I've certainly had my share of problems on online forums over the years, but none the less I have always fought for Internet to be a free exchange of information. Most of my problems have been with heavy handed moderation, physically changing text without making a moderator's note in the message, stubborn people not being able to offer someone else their own opinions, et al. There are dozens of reasons why many online forums close down or change in tide, times change and so do people...I have just been of the belief that if you don't extend the courtesy to EVERYONE it will eventually bite you in the end. People will not accept that and go to places that are less moderated.

Some crafts are just terse and difficult to get along with, more so than woodworkers. Anyone who has hung out on the chainsaw forums knows that you need a lot thicker skin than woodworking forums, and that holds true for machinist forums as well...machinists are their own breed as well...

This forum doesn't seem very heavily moderated these days, it was more so in the past from my view, but I don't see many of the regulars here that used to be here.

Any explanation to this change that is not seen on the surface? IOW, maybe people just changed and moved on???

I know social media surfaced and this could have had an effect on the members, many people use FaceBook these days as they do InstaGram. I quit using FaceBook a bit over a year ago, don't miss it at all, and I think it's toxic. It is not better than TV, so if you're the type of person that likes to watch TV, you will probably love FaceBook.

The modern way to move videos and more pictures, that is what YouTube and FaceBook are all about, although both have become a commercialized pile of disappointment for many people. The owners got filthy rich and continue to off advertising and marketing to the members. ZuckerBooger selling data to China is yet another example of playing stupid...oh, he made a mistake...he didn't realize selling your data to China was bad...tsk...tsk...tsk...I digress...

WoodCentral and Sawmill Creek seem to have a fair amount of traffic, just that Woodnet is a quite a bit less... 


Cheers,
Alan

[2beast]

I don't really have anything to add, but it is good to see some of you guys here again 

[Handplanesandmore]

I don't think Woodcentral is active at all. The same dozen of people and sometimes nit one single post in days.

The Sawcreek is active but overly moderated as you pointed out. Threads disappear with no explanation or posts removed if they don't like what they see.

Forums are dying because we change and there are alternatives: instagram is getting hot these days with one account having 6 digit followers!

Thick skins? I rather see a lot of having thin skins on various forums, failing to speak up or defend themselves. May be it is a reflection of the real world as I see at workplace where some people don't stand up for themselves even when they are right.

Still forums are better than blogs where you often see views that are the same as the bloggers. All you see is group think.

Simon