Veritas saws from China?

[Handplanesandmore]

 I think he's probably a front for some folks in the US liquidating stores or estates or something.  One buyer from the same seller said his tool was shipped from Michigan.

Many Chinese ebay operators have shipped their goods to family-based depots located in North America, and goods sold are shipped from those depots. I once received a pack of batteries bought from a Chinese ebay store, shipped free, within a week. How the hell could they afford airmail delivery?!! No, the parcel had local postage.

If the buyer used paypal for the handsaw transaction, he or she would be safe even if the seller turns out to be a scammer. That's the beauty of using paypal and ebay. 100% protection. 

Simon

[Timberwolf]

Many Chinese ebay operators have shipped their goods to family-based depots located in North America, and goods sold are shipped from those depots. I once received a pack of batteries bought from a Chinese ebay store, shipped free, within a week. How the hell could they afford airmail delivery?!! No, the parcel had local postage.

If the buyer used paypal for the handsaw transaction, he or she would be safe even if the seller turns out to be a scammer. That's the beauty of using paypal and ebay. 100% protection. 

Simon

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Many Chinese ebay operators have shipped their goods to family-based depots located in North America, and goods sold are shipped from those depots.

This....../\

[Joel (Tools for Working Wood)]

The chances that this is a fraudulent sale are nearly 100%

1 - new saw sold below cost
2 - picture stolen from another site - no proof that the seller actually has or ever had the saw.
3 - price lower than new.
4 - feedback - new cases of none receiving.

Scam is this - seller out of US steals images and descriptions and sells something on ebay at a great price.
Seller then buys the item from a US on-line vendor using a stolen credit card.
US vendor ships
buyer gets brand new product
two months later US vendor gets a disputed payment - which they lose and also have to pay a penalty.

Typically the items scammed are not so expensive that if the billing and shipping address are different the vendor might flag the order.


joel  (who learned about this the hard way)

[Handplanesandmore]

The chances that this is a fraudulent sale are nearly 100%

1 - new saw sold below cost
2 - picture stolen from another site - no proof that the seller actually has or ever had the saw.
3 - price lower than new.
4 - feedback - new cases of none receiving.

Scam is this - seller out of US steals images and descriptions and sells something on ebay at a great price.
Seller then buys the item from a US on-line vendor using a stolen credit card.
US vendor ships
buyer gets brand new product
two months later US vendor gets a disputed payment - which they lose and also have to pay a penalty.

Typically the items scammed are not so expensive that if the billing and shipping address are different the vendor might flag the order.


joel  (who learned about this the hard way)

Joel,

The scenario your painted is totally possible, and the victim in such case would be a legitimate vendor. I wonder what vendors can do to protect them against such fraudulent credit card losses. Or can the big credit card companies do anything about it?

However, I'd like to point out that the four signs you pointed out can and do happen often in legitimate ebay sales. In fact, many Chinese ebay sellers use the same stock photos for their lines of products even when the products among them look slightly different. They are low-cost, free shipping vendors and don't have the resources to their own product ad. They also copy each other's descriptions including any errors therein.

Many products sold in America come from China, and we can easily find the SAME, brand new products on ebay at half the price or even less. So prices alone cannot tell us if the seller is a scammer.

Goods not received are the least worries of ebay buyers today because once you file a claim, the refund is almost completed within days. Almost as quick as you deal with a brick and mortar store. Credits must be given to ebay for revolutionizing its customer protection program.

We all know about one Chinese vendor who copies Benchcrafted and Veritas products and sells them at about 40% to 50% of their premium prices. Its products do not carry the same kind of quality of course.

Simon

[Joel (Tools for Working Wood)]

Simon,
 the credit card companies have little incentive to do anything about it because it is the regular merchant who takes the loss.  I would assume that all legitimate vendors have stop loss programs in place.

What consumers can do is patronize authorized dealers of a product. It is of course a good possibility that and end user needs to sell a new or nearly new tool on ebay - but in that case original photographs are easy for them to do.

[Skip J.]

Joel,

The scenario your painted is totally possible, and the victim in such case would be a legitimate vendor. I wonder what vendors can do to protect them against such fraudulent credit card losses. Or can the big credit card companies do anything about it?

However, I'd like to point out that the four signs you pointed out can and do happen often in legitimate ebay sales. In fact, many Chinese ebay sellers use the same stock photos for their lines of products even when the products among them look slightly different. They are low-cost, free shipping vendors and don't have the resources to their own product ad. They also copy each other's descriptions including any errors therein.

Many products sold in America come from China, and we can easily find the SAME, brand new products on ebay at half the price or even less. So prices alone cannot tell us if the seller is a scammer.

Goods not received are the least worries of ebay buyers today because once you file a claim, the refund is almost completed within days. Almost as quick as you deal with a brick and mortar store. Credits must be given to ebay for revolutionizing its customer protection program.

We all know about one Chinese vendor who copies Benchcrafted and Veritas products and sells them at about 40% to 50% of their premium prices. Its products do not carry the same kind of quality of course.  

Simon

Any particular reason to buy a certain vendor's products from somebody else than the vendor??? I have never bought anything on ebay yet... don't plan to either....  If price is a consideration, we have our own Swap'n Sell, why go anywhere else???

Just my 2 cts worth.....

[Rob Lee]

The chances that this is a fraudulent sale are nearly 100%

1 - new saw sold below cost
2 - picture stolen from another site - no proof that the seller actually has or ever had the saw.
3 - price lower than new.
4 - feedback - new cases of none receiving.

Scam is this - seller out of US steals images and descriptions and sells something on ebay at a great price.
Seller then buys the item from a US on-line vendor using a stolen credit card.
US vendor ships
buyer gets brand new product
two months later US vendor gets a disputed payment - which they lose and also have to pay a penalty.

Typically the items scammed are not so expensive that if the billing and shipping address are different the vendor might flag the order.


joel  (who learned about this the hard way)

Joel is 100% on the money.

This is a common method of fraud ..... and one we all ultimately pay for.

Rob

[Handplanesandmore]

Any particular reason to buy a certain vendor's products from somebody else than the vendor??? I have never bought anything on ebay yet... don't plan to either....  If price is a consideration, we have our own Swap'n Sell, why go anywhere else???

Just my 2 cts worth.....

One common reason people buy from ebay is availability. Not every buyer is knowledgeable about knowing where to buy a certain item. If you type "xxx" in the search field, ebay brings the vendors (sometimes too many!) to your desktop, and often free shipping is offered. Convenience is the currency for some buyers.

As I said, in the old days, a buyer received limited protection from ebay (unless you bought insurance) and the process was cumbersome, and sometimes frustrating. Now, it is a different story. A quick photo sent to the vendor/ebay showing the defect or damage will almost guarantee a full refund including shipping the next day or a few days later. If you initiate a claim with the vendor, ebay even sends you a reminder that if the vendor does not respond to you in 7 days, it will intervene! Bullet proof, isn't it? If you deal with an airline these days, you have to chase and chase for a small thing! NO decent customers (except the scammers and un-decent ones) want to get a refund, but when they need it, they don't want hassles, like a copy of the original receipt. Neither Amazon nor ebay ever gives me any refund troubles when I deserve a refund.

But for woodworking tools, I shop exclusively with woodworking vendors, not through any third party sellers like ebay, because the third party sellers may know nothing about the tools.

Simon

[AHill]

Any particular reason to buy a certain vendor's products from somebody else than the vendor??? I have never bought anything on ebay yet... don't plan to either....  If price is a consideration, we have our own Swap'n Sell, why go anywhere else???

Just my 2 cts worth.....

For WW tools, I stick to authorized dealers, Swap'n Sell or similar outlets hosted on woodworking sites, or established WW tool dealers e.g. The Best Things.  I picked up a lot of my handtools from eBay.  If you're shopping eBay, a few things to help you ID counterfeit or fraudulent dealers:

• Prices are significantly below market price - especially if advertised as new
  
• Photos are stolen from a legitimate site
  
• No photos of the box
  
• Description stolen from a legitimate site
  
• Seller does not have a long history
  
• Seller is selling multiple types of items not related to woodworking
  
• Seller is from a country you normally wouldn't find such items
  
• Free shipping from any country outside the US
  
• Feedback includes instances of goods not received or not as described
  
• Seller does not respond to inquiries
  

In the watches world, there are established "Gray Market" dealers, who are not authorized dealers.  They get their watches from vendors that are trying to liquidate slow movers, or from overseas markets (China, Singapore, etc.).  They sell genuine watches, but if you buy GM, you don't get the manufacturer's warranty, so that's a risk.  Some GM dealers offer a third party warranty.

[Skip J.]

But for woodworking tools, I shop exclusively with woodworking vendors, not through any third party sellers like ebay, because the third party sellers may know nothing about the tools.

Simon

Hello Simon;

Well said, that is exactly what I meant....

Now when I go up to Lynn Dowd's to shop I can touch each tool as I look at it and ask Lynn if he know's it's history... that's entirely different. And if a defect is present, Lynn will give you a discount on the spot. All of the other tool dealers on here (a little further away from me) will be the same way...