Screwed up wiring?

[KC]

are you sure they just didn't use whatever color wire they wanted instead of using the correct colored wire?

I have a bathroom light/fan with three switches.  One for the light, one for the exhaust fan, one for the heat (and exhaust I think).  I wanted to put a timer on the fan.  Opened it up and closed it right back, returned the timer.  

[srv52761]

I'm not sure what you mean by "prep the truncated wire", since it is cut at the box I can't see a way of pigtailing it except outside of the box, and that's not allowed. Can you explain further?

Remove the box, you will probably have to cut the nails holding it to the studs with a hacksaw blade or a multi-tool.  Release the wires from the cable clamp.  There will now be a couple of inches of white wire from romex B . Strip the 3/8” off.  Using either the wago or the in-line splice kit add enough wire for you to work with.  If you use the inline splice you are done.  Just feed it back into an old work box (as deep as will fit, just on general principal).  
If you use the wago I would tape the wago connectors and wire as strain relief, enlarge the integrated cable clamp to accept the wago, and feed it through. If you are lucky you can pull enough to completely capture the wago within the box.   If not, you may be able gain another inch or two by using a deeper box, depending on the direction the cable was fed.   
But it looks like the inline splice would be the way to go.

[barryvabeach]

Scouter,  I hate to repeat myself, but you need to understand how it is working now before you start to change things around.  From your description, I have a wild guess, though only if the fan and light are mounted on the same box.  My guess is that there are three cables or sets of wires  entering the fan - light work box.  One set is from the panel box and carries power. The two other sets of wires go to the two switches.  Inside the fan light work box, the neutral from the panel box is connected to the neutral side of both the fan and light.  The hot, or power, is connected to one of the wires that is going to the switches, the remaining wire in that set is cut off  ( call that set B ) .  On the third set, call it set C one wire is connected to the hot for the fan, and one connected for the hot to the light.    When you turn to the switch box,  the hot wire from set B is connected to both switches - you said one wire went to both switches.  The other wire from set B is cut off.  The two remaining wires from set C are connected to the two switches.  If it is wired that way, hot comes into the fan light box, then goes to the switches, as each switch is turned on, it sends power back to the fan light box, and turns on either the fan or the light.  The person who wired it cut off the extra white because he was using one wire to power both switches.  Again, this is only a  wild guess, but if you look at the two illustrations in the link I posted earlier, and then check the wiring, you should be able to figure it out.  A VOM would be helpful -  even if you can't get into the light fan box, you could unscrew the bulb  ( while the power is off ) and disconnect the wires and check for continuity.  If I am right, you will find none of the wires are connected to the neutral part of the light assembly, and one of the wires from one switch is connected to the hot side of the light assembly .
https://blog.smartthings.com/wp-content/...df0ae3.png

[Scouter]

Scouter,  I hate to repeat myself, but you need to understand how it is working now before you start to change things around.  From your description, I have a wild guess, though only if the fan and light are mounted on the same box.  My guess is that there are three cables or sets of wires  entering the fan - light work box.  One set is from the panel box and carries power. The two other sets of wires go to the two switches.  Inside the fan light work box, the neutral from the panel box is connected to the neutral side of both the fan and light.  The hot, or power, is connected to one of the wires that is going to the switches, the remaining wire in that set is cut off  ( call that set B ) .  On the third set, call it set C one wire is connected to the hot for the fan, and one connected for the hot to the light.    When you turn to the switch box,  the hot wire from set B is connected to both switches - you said one wire went to both switches.  The other wire from set B is cut off.  The two remaining wires from set C are connected to the two switches.  If it is wired that way, hot comes into the fan light box, then goes to the switches, as each switch is turned on, it sends power back to the fan light box, and turns on either the fan or the light.  The person who wired it cut off the extra white because he was using one wire to power both switches.  Again, this is only a  wild guess, but if you look at the two illustrations in the link I posted earlier, and then check the wiring, you should be able to figure it out.  A VOM would be helpful -  even if you can't get into the light fan box, you could unscrew the bulb  ( while the power is off ) and disconnect the wires and check for continuity.  If I am right, you will find none of the wires are connected to the neutral part of the light assembly, and one of the wires from one switch is connected to the hot side of the light assembly .  
https://blog.smartthings.com/wp-content/...df0ae3.png

Barry, I understand what you said, and I did look at the image. That is a standard hookup that I am familiar with, this is not.

The light and the fan are two different fixtures, and are on two different switches. I can't see the physical wire because of how it is all boxed in: from the switches up the wall. Both, from there, go through the studs, one to a light fixture, the other into a "box" created to lower the height in the bath/shower area, the fan is in the "box".

The first switch has a full romex going to it, black goes in with power, white comes out. This setup controls the light.

The second switch has a romex coming in where the white and ground have been clipped. The black goes to the switch and has power, the other connector on the switch has a white wire that comes from the white wire on the other switch. This switch controls the fan.

I can't physically trace the wires because the are always behind the wall. What I am at a loss to understand is how both the fan and light work the way the white wires are connected. They seem to be acting as a common wire. It would seem to me that both switches would be supplying power to the white wire, then to wherever it goes, yet the switches work independently, one only controls the light, the other only controls the fan. The light can be on with the fan off, and the fan can be on with the light off. Just isn't making any sense to me.

I am getting to the point where, as suggested, I would remove the box, extend the cut wire, and wire it properly to the second switch. But, without knowing just how this is functioning I'm not sure how to handle things at the boxes without really screwing things up.

[srv52761]

Barry, I understand what you said, and I did look at the image. That is a standard hookup that I am familiar with, this is not.

The light and the fan are two different fixtures, and are on two different switches. I can't see the physical wire because of how it is all boxed in: from the switches up the wall. Both, from there, go through the studs, one to a light fixture, the other into a "box" created to lower the height in the bath/shower area, the fan is in the "box".

The first switch has a full romex going to it, black goes in with power, white comes out. This setup controls the light.

The second switch has a romex coming in where the white and ground have been clipped. The black goes to the switch and has power, the other connector on the switch has a white wire that comes from the white wire on the other switch. This switch controls the fan.

I can't physically trace the wires because the are always behind the wall. What I am at a loss to understand is how both the fan and light work the way the white wires are connected. They seem to be acting as a common wire. It would seem to me that both switches would be supplying power to the white wire, then to wherever it goes, yet the switches work independently, one only controls the light, the other only controls the fan. The light can be on with the fan off, and the fan can be on with the light off. Just isn't making any sense to me.

I am getting to the point where, as suggested, I would remove the box, extend the cut wire, and wire it properly to the second switch. But, without knowing just how this is functioning I'm not sure how to handle things at the boxes without really screwing things up.

As TDKPE said, it is simple and actually wired to code as long as you realized it is that one, unclipped WHITE wire that is bringing in the power to the switches.  As per the code he cited you may use a white wire to SUPPLY power to the switch, you should use the black wires to return the power to the fixtures.

[srv52761]

Dollars to donuts it looks like this

   


The white at switch 2 has been clipped.  Everything is to code, (Edit: actually, I think it is a code violation to have two wires under the screw on switch1, but maybe not...).

If so, all your wiring for the FAN will actually take place in the LIGHT junction box.  No Need to open the fan.

Edit: unless the power goes to the fan first, then just switch my labels around.....
Open up the light box. From what you described it will tell us the rest.

[barryvabeach]

I would second srv's bet on the donughts, great diagram by the way.   Scouter,  do a bunch of tests and  make sure you feel comfortable you understand how it is working, even if it is working some way other than srv's diagram, before you go changing.  Right now it works.  It may be srv's diagram, or some other, but it does work and we need to make sure we understand how before you start playing with it.  

Working from srv's diagram,  remove the white wire from S1 or S2,  cap it, and then turn the power back on.  Does the light switch work and not the fan?  Then try removing the white on S2 and hooking it to S1 -  does the fan switch work, and not the light?  Finally,  unscrew the light bulb, and check to see if  there is power measured between the black and the white on S1 -  if srv's diagram is correct, you should not see any power.

[TDKPE]

What those guys said. 


Found my '96 NEC - unmarked white conductor still allowed for switch legs then, so '99 was when it was changed, and of course, it takes time for towns, counties, and/or states to adopt updates.

[mstens]

What those guys said. 


Found my '96 NEC - unmarked white conductor still allowed for switch legs then, so '99 was when it was changed, and of course, it takes time for towns, counties, and/or states to adopt updates.

... and of course, I've found tape laying in boxes from bad phase-taping jobs too.

[Scouter]

Dollars to donuts it looks like this




The white at switch 2 has been clipped.  Everything is to code, (Edit: actually, I think it is a code violation to have two wires under the screw on switch1, but maybe not...).

If so, all your wiring for the FAN will actually take place in the LIGHT junction box.  No Need to open the fan.

Edit: unless the power goes to the fan first, then just switch my labels around.....
Open up the light box. From what you described it will tell us the rest.

Thanks. I'm a visual person, what you drew makes sense, still seems dumb, but at least it makes sense.

Still seems like the only solution is to pull a new line through the walls. Pull a new S2 wire with a fish tape. Going to be slow and hard, crossing fingers that it doesn't separate from the tape as I pull it.