sharpening PM-V11

[hbmcc]

Update to current year.

[hbmcc]

I updated my Japanese chisels with a new set of oirenomi white #1 laminated steel. I have been messing around with old stones that sent me screaming to diamond paste a few years ago. The frustration has not been limited to high carbon, high Rc laminated steel. My stable of PM-V11 blades, both chisels and plane blades, have caused no little grief when sharpening. And, I have an aversion to wheeling hollow ground bevels, especially on laminated steel.

This time it was suggested I give water stones another try. 

What I finally beat into my arthritic arms, fingers, and back from hours of grinding on one, that's 1, a single item, PM-V11 blade was that sharpening starts with the appropriate base grit. Sharpening can end there, too. More importantly, shaping a bevel starts at yet a coarser grit. 

Or, it should. I am waiting on a 220 grit stone (cheap, cheap, inexpensive) to shape bevels on my oirenomi and LV 7/11 tools. Sharpening starts at around 400 grit which is what I am trying to use now to convert high carbon forge steel at 31 -32-degrees to 27 degrees and less bevels. I smoothed a 330 diamond lapping plate reshaping a 36mm chisel. I can't fathom why people pay mega bucks to burn up factory impregnated diamond plates. For me they are expensive honing plates for paste; flip them over and use the backs.

Veritas 7/11 steel makes a wire edge. After kissing the edge with the starter 400, the old Suehiro 1000 makes a nice one that usually falls away into the slurry. I can even chase the wire on the 3000 Imanishi water stone. I finish the polish (and hairs) on an 8000 stone. There is really no need to go further but I do have a .5 micron diamond plate, if I were a president, maybe. 

People gloat about how many strokes it takes to raise a hair. Well, yah... It's easy when the grit sequence is established ... properly.

[AHill]

I updated my Japanese chisels with a new set of oirenomi white #1 laminated steel. I have been messing around with old stones that sent me screaming to diamond paste a few years ago. The frustration has not been limited to high carbon, high Rc laminated steel. My stable of PM-V11 blades, both chisels and plane blades, have caused no little grief when sharpening. And, I have an aversion to wheeling hollow ground bevels, especially on laminated steel.

This time it was suggested I give water stones another try. 

What I finally beat into my arthritic arms, fingers, and back from hours of grinding on one, that's 1, a single item, PM-V11 blade was that sharpening starts with the appropriate base grit. Sharpening can end there, too. More importantly, shaping a bevel starts at yet a coarser grit. 

Or, it should. I am waiting on a 220 grit stone (cheap, cheap, inexpensive) to shape bevels on my oirenomi and LV 7/11 tools. Sharpening starts at around 400 grit which is what I am trying to use now to convert high carbon forge steel at 31 -32-degrees to 27 degrees and less bevels. I smoothed a 330 diamond lapping plate reshaping a 36mm chisel. I can't fathom why people pay mega bucks to burn up factory impregnated diamond plates. For me they are expensive honing plates for paste; flip them over and use the backs.

Veritas 7/11 steel makes a wire edge. After kissing the edge with the starter 400, the old Suehiro 1000 makes a nice one that usually falls away into the slurry. I can even chase the wire on the 3000 Imanishi water stone. I finish the polish (and hairs) on an 8000 stone. There is really no need to go further but I do have a .5 micron diamond plate, if I were a president, maybe. 

People gloat about how many strokes it takes to raise a hair. Well, yah... It's easy when the grit sequence is established ... properly.

Hours of grinding?  I'm assuming that's cumulative for a host of chisels or blades.  Grinding should only be considered to re-establish a new bevel or correct edge damage.  Otherwise, you're unnecessarily wasting steel.

I think you've figured it out, though.  Coarser grits to establish a new bevel, followed by progressively finer grits to polish the edge.  I personally don't think it's necessary to sharpen / hone the entire bevel of a chisel unless it's a Japanese chisel or unless you need to lower the bevel angle.  If you need a higher bevel angle, establish secondary bevel with a coarse grit (you don't need very many strokes to do this), then progress through the grits to polish the edge.  

As for diamond stones, there's a simple answer on why:  it's faster.  Cheap diamond stones are just that - cheap.  Atoma and DMT make good diamond stones are they are very quick and don't require frequent flattening.  The mess is less as well.   Paul Sellers switched to diamond stones several years ago for that reason.  He still strops on charged leather, though.

[hbmcc]

Yesterday, before ordering a new "shaping" stone, #220, sintered and extremely aggressive, I did a SWAG test on a new 3/4" LV 7/11 (PM-v11). The subject of my above thread revival post. I will try not to duplicate too much from the earlier post.

However, in a final nod to proper grit progression, it is important to stress that sharpening grits and types are typically personal choice. In that choice, reaction to the material is clearly, for me, a variable in preference. I have several stones, and still not enough for practical sharpening. The biggest takeaway was understanding that the most important grits will be the first one used. I also found that grit progression fell into slow-fast, easy-hard transitions. My diamond honeymoon via Tools for Working Wood lacked a critical #3000-4000 grit between #1000/15u and about #20,000/0.5 micron. For anything but vanity, the half micron is useless.

I intend to use the Veritas chisels for paring only. Especially when setting up a new chisel or other blade I will use an Eclipse-type guide. I flattened the manufactured bevel to its original ~25-degree primary base. The hollow grind was removed along with the secondary bevel. The final finish is a single bevel. Honing was taken to 8000 grit on what I think is an Imanishi ceramic stone. 

Personally, secondary bevels, ruler back-flats, and micro bevels have been fussy and grown into real headaches. I will play with "flat" for a while.

BTW, the first thing I did on the 300 plate was remove the 7/11 lands razor edge. So what if the 3/4 inch is a fraction of a mm narrower. I've cut too many fingers to be that anal.

Shaping-Coarse sharpening with 300 grit diamonds-
I started with the most aggressive abrasive, that was not sanding abrasive, a worn out Sigma 300 diamond flattening plate; probably from Stu Tierney. I have struggled with Norton paste at p320/45 micron and the Sigma was little different. The advantage of the Sigma was working dry and easily following wear progression to a barely visible factory edge, without grinding past that edge. 

Setup on the guide, through shaping and cleanup of the waste was about 35-40 minutes for the first phase. Pretty slow but much faster than previous sessions. The guide remained on the tool until finished. 

Contrary to expert recommendations, playing pansy on diamond plates only keeps the grit sorta' pristine. Lean hard and smooth the surface. Remember, bonded surface diamonds are only a few microns thick and disappear forever. On any make of product. Make sure your plate has a flat back for recycling. Norton produces reasonably priced water based paste in any grit a woodworker could need. And, best, a grain of rice-like size renews the feel to new.

#1000 Suehiro ceramic sharpening-
This stone caused a lot of consternation years ago, so I researched and flattened, then pre-soaked it for 40 minutes. It readily smoothed the coarse wear and produced two to three wire edges in the 15 minutes spent working the bevel. The tool went to the next finer stage with burr I could feel. 

Imanishi stones are softer and whip up a slurry quickly. I love the #1200, but the Suehiro could be a great usurper. Both stones cut steel fast and wear fast too. I flatten these medium grits after every use. Having two of each stone makes flattening easy and safe from grit contamination. Suehiro changes names of its products, so I don't know if the #1000 can be duplicated currently.

#3000 Imanishi/Bester (?) water stone-
This stone is new and I don't know enough to be confident with soak or splash requirements. Lee Valley has a range of Imanishi and this grit is still in the soak category. The stone works well and could easily be the final grit for edges. The stone is effective in refining edge and producing a cloudy finish. After 5 to ten minutes of chasing the wire, I moved to the final polish. 

#8000 Imanishi/Bester (?) ceramic stone-
Both the #3000 and #8000 are new stones; and bare the ridiculous asian mystique of No Name secrecy. The color and technical statistics match those on the Lee Valley catalog. The  8000 stone is splash and go. And, the possible 5 minutes spent on it should not require half-an-hour pre-soaking. The stone produced a mirror finish on both the flat back and bevel. 

Total time spent at the kitchen counter with the 3/4 inch PM-v11 chisel was about 1 hour. That time included cleanup and wash down before moving to the next grit. I need to present a multi-function room for potentially multi-function use at regular intervals. I may have flattened a couple stones in the process. With water stones, even splash and go, our wet, humid winters are not conducive to packing up stones fully saturated for sharpening and honing. It takes weeks to dry medium high grits at an inch thick. 

Now, what easy, cheap and safe test assures a reasonably sharp edge. Even a 1000 grit stone removes the blinking edge reflection. The fingernail slip helps to moderate timing for moving to the next grit in the 1000 and 3000 stones. If I worry about a wire edge I can be chasing one that falls off all day. My fingertips have a lot of background numbness and irritation to prevent feeling safe in sliding the edge along skin. A perpendicular feel says enough when checking a burr. 

I slide the edge over my off hand thumbnail for confirmation to move on. An edge cuts nail even at 1000, and I can mess up 30 seconds into the next finer of any of the following grits. Cutting and skating approach each other in feel but the furrow is proof. 

Like the kid says: Don't shave your ears, or you may take up a new hobby.

[cputnam]

I like Timberwolf's sharpness test. Take a cheap paper towel (flimsier is better) and hold it so most of it is flopping. If your chisel will cut that cleanly, it is sharp enough for woodworking.

[Maple Leaf]

I largely agree with hbmcc when I think he suggested starting significantly coarser and then refining a tiny edge. Actually, that's the essence of hollow grinding, but with V211 that grinding just saves tons of time. The stuff is really hard so you might as well cut off all the rough stuff (read: wear bevel and divots) in a hurry if you ever want to get back to work. Getting back to work with sharp tools is the goal.

If it's really worn (V211 gets trashed, too), grind it out to a very tiny edge. Keep it cool - CBN will save your butt here, but white or even grey wheels will work if you're careful. I expect to hone four to eight times before grinding again. 

I've got used Atomas in 400, 600 and 800; the 600 and 800 see very little use. Diamond stones wear much too quickly for my tastes/pocketbook, and I'd love to find a cheap alternative. My 400 is simply way too smooth to quickly take off that shiny wear bevel, so I'm about to go searching for a seriously coarser stone - 200ish? Opinions gratefully appreciated.

After the coarse stone, I can get just as anal as I need to for the work at hand. But let’s assume I’m starting with my low angle jack; it doesn’t need to pare end grain so I’l usually hone just the very edge on a 1000 grit Sigma water stone only to the point where I can see that it’s square and consistent. Ten long strokes? Dave Weaver uses a Washita for apparently the same effect (my interpretation- Dave may disagree). I’d love to try it, but I don’t have the stone. Again, opinions gratefully appreciated.

Then I’ll usually give it another ten to twenty strokes on a Sigma 4000. If I’m just hogging off non-abrasive stock for shop quality work, that may be it. For more dearly priced hardwood, that’s not good enough. My 13000 grit Sigma is the cat’s meow for plane irons. I usually use the “ruler trick” with a strip of 14 mil Mylar only because it’s as long as the stone. Again, it saves time and effort on the back side. However that soft 13000 grit water stone is very unforgiving of chisels, at least for my ham fists which pretty easily gouge it up requiring seriously flattening. 

For my better chisels (I have lots including V211, Japanese and O1) I go straight to a strip of garden variety 3” wide Home Depot MDF with a dab of Dursol (an Autosol product). Thanks again to Dave Weaver. Pull the blade until the MDF gets pretty well impregnated or you’ll gouge it up as bad as my Sigma on chisels. After that, you can strop in both directions. 

I then strop all cutting tools on bare cow’s butt leather, rough-out (although it probably doesn’t matter). Now we’re talkin’ polish, but part of this concept bothers me: THERE HAS TO BE SOME DUBBING AS A RESULT OF THE STROPPING. Therefore the edge is rounding over to some tiny, really minor degree.

This really bothered me for awhile. And then I concluded that it didn’t mean Jack: my cutting tools are sharp. YMMV.

[hbmcc]

I thought about mentioning the 20-pound bond, the newsprint and glossy clay covered ad sheets I sliced to check relative sharpness. But, the effectiveness of slicing those is influenced by final grit and edge angle. We also need to be aware that some of those materials are used as stropping hones, so beware. A razor slices far differently than the blunt objects I sweat and swore over. My fingers and their nails are convenient, and consistent registers.

I don't shill the abrasives I noted above. For each I have at least two alternates that probably work as well. The intent was to identify the materials and grits that worked well and efficiently (or, not) in sequence. The problem children, deadbeats, and missing pieces were very evident once I wrapped my head around the process. Unfortunately, part of my problem was in following the dictates of other sharpeners without understanding the needed physics. 

It's doubtful one abrasive is better than another. Sure, prices vary and some are more consistent in grit and process than others. They each have a sweat spot. I have a grinding wheel and some (I'm sure) think I am nuts for not using it in the regimen. It works great for lawn mower blades, and restoring badly chipped Japanese steel bevels. And, all the abrasives are messy. Some are easier to clean up so dinner can be made.

[AHill]

It's doubtful one abrasive is better than another. Sure, prices vary and some are more consistent in grit and process than others. They each have a sweet spot. 

Maybe there's no difference in abrasives (I doubt it), but how they are configured and what binder is used makes a huge difference.  Time after time, reviews of sharpening stones and sharpening media will point out how aggresively the stones cut.  I'll take my Sigma over an Arkansas stone any day of the week for my PM-V11 edge tools.  Shaptons are quicker than Nortons.  Nortons are quicker than Kings.  That's my experience.  YMMV.

To prove my point, try sharpening a D2 chisel with Arkansas stones.  Then switch to Sigma or Shaptons and tell me you can't tell the difference.

[wmickley]

Maybe there's no difference in abrasives (I doubt it), but how they are configured and what binder is used makes a huge difference.  Time after time, reviews of sharpening stones and sharpening media will point out how aggresively the stones cut.  I'll take my Sigma over an Arkansas stone any day of the week for my PM-V11 edge tools.  Shaptons are quicker than Nortons.  Nortons are quicker than Kings.  That's my experience.  YMMV.

To prove my point, try sharpening a D2 chisel with Arkansas stones.  Then switch to Sigma or Shaptons and tell me you can't tell the difference.

It does not sound like you have much experience using Arkansas stones. We use coarser stones like water stones, India stones or Carborundum stones for getting an edge, Arkansas for polishing. 

Traditional use is a water stone (rub stone) followed by an oil stone.

[Timberwolf]

It does not sound like you have much experience using Arkansas stones. We use coarser stones like water stones, India stones or Carborundum stones for getting an edge, Arkansas for polishing. 

Traditional use is a water stone (rub stone) followed by an oil stone.

..............................
Silicon carbide, AKA Carborundum, has largely been forgotten by today's woodworkers but its action is similar to that of Waterstones...At nine on the Moh's Scale, SC is very close to diamond in hardness..and can make short work of most steels...IIRC, Novaculite { Arkansas, Washita } is around seven on the Moh's, making the "cutting" action on hard steels much slower...Some of the Novaculite {Washita } is held in a softer matrix and cuts more quickly but also wears away faster...As a "natural" stone, there can be a pretty wide "spread" from one batch of novaculite to the other, so some polish finer and cut faster than others and when you get a good one, you cherish it.
..I have a few.....

IMO, more woodworkers should give SC a chance to show what it can do....they may be surprised.