Stumpy Nubs - Table Saw Bevel Kickback Goes Thru Wall

[tablesawtom]

to not only that particular sort of kick back but also to the imminent danger of him cutting off his thumb and. or finger from his left hand as he uses it to help push the workpiece at the unguarded blade!

I viewed the video twice and the person removed his left hand in plenty of time. The one thing that one doesn't see is depth. A camera photographs in 2 D not 3D His left hand never got to the throat plate.
He had a high push stick so his right hand never came close to the blade. He had a riving knife installed and a blade guard wouldn't have stopped the kick back from happening anyway. And the one thing that most never comment on is the person WAS NOT standing in the throw of the machine.

Stumpy even said that the person did everything correctly. And I believe he did, but he kicked the board out at the end  as the board cleared the back of the blade allowing the cut off to contact the front of the blade causing the kick back. If he had followed through a little more with his cut the kick back would never have occurred in the first place. Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want and I will bet you he will not let that happen again.

I am thankful for Stumpy for posting the video And showing what can happen if one small detail id missed that we can all learn from it.

And to the one so full of self rightness indignation over someone not following some ones conceited safety rule no one even knows about I say if you never have even picked up a sliver or did something when driving a car that you wish you could do over then okay. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. I would like to write more about this, I would never do anything like this kind violation of my safety standards, but prudence is the better part of valor.

He didn't get hurt because He followed the most important safety rule and that is don't stand in the throw of the machine. I am sorry but safety is an attitude and not a set of rules. 

And now you can crucify me also.

Tom

[Capel Sion]

(snip)

He didn't get hurt because He followed the most important safety rule and that is don't stand in the throw of the machine. I am sorry but safety is an attitude and not a set of rules. 

And now you can crucify me also.

Tom

A willing martyr! Nevertheless, no nails and cross for you, just more discussion that may slightly bruise your hard & fast beliefs.  :-)

The above quote indicates a basic self-contradiction. You say that the Stumper "followed the most important safety rule" but that "safety is an attitude and not a set of rules".  Which is it?

Well, why not apply the dialectic (thesis-antithesis-synthesis). The quick synthesis is that attitude and rule-following are both contributors to remaining safe from harm when operating dangerous machinery. Rules are an experienced-based synthesis of various useful attitudes that one can follow without having to learn those attitudes the hard way, inclusive of loss of a few fingers and a dent in the head, perhaps.

But this illustrates that there may be yet more contributors to safe operation of woodworking machinery, one of which is the design of the machinery itself. Some designs are inherently more dangerous than others. This is why guards, riving knives, hold-downs, feather boards and push sticks are all useful contributors to safety, enhancing the good attitudes and the useful rules-of-use. 

Why, for example, use an old unisaw when you can use a modern sawstop? Some will say that they have had no issue with their unguarded riving knife-less unisaw, used without a guard, feather board etcetera, etcetera.  But the shocking US TS accident rate will still insist that the things are much more dangerous than properly designed table saws such as those in Europe, where the pro-rata accident rate is far, far less. The people are the same sort of error-prone humans as in the US. But the safety gubbins and often stringently-enforced health and safety rules (in commercial workplaces, at least) mean that physical harms from TS accidents are greatly reduced compared to the USA.

There are other contributors to safety, such as a propensity to admit our errors; a willingness to review our habits (of action and thought) no matter how uncomfortable that is; the ability to take advice, even when its given with a dollop of teasing as well as the good intent.

Who knows what other contributors there are to safety? There'll be some we haven't recognised yet. To let such additions manifest, it may be a good tactic to not assume that safety things are part of a zero-sum arrangement.  It's not attitude OR rules OR safe machine design OR ..... it can be all of them at once, adding cumulatively to increased overall safety.

But feel "free" to take as many risks as you want with your own TS. On the other hand, what will the wife say when you lose this finger or even those three?  She will be disappointed, I'm sure.  (As will you).

Capel, emitting a lecture in a reedy and pedantic tone.  :-)

[castguy2003]

I have evidence of two . . . ummmmm . . . incidents approximately 15 feet away from and in line with my tablesaw.

One is a 1/2" hole in the door on the cabinet that holds my shaper cutters.  The other is a hole in the drywall about three feet above the hole in the cabinet door.

I always point out the holes to anyone that wants to get comfortable on my stool at the workbench while I am using the tablesaw.  When I say "Don't sit there now." and show them the holes, they move.

I can top that. I put a hole thru the wind shield of my wife's Model A Ford.

[fredhargis]

The only table saw injury I've ever had was with kickback. This was many, many years ago right after I got my first tablesaw and it didn't do anything like punch a hole in the wall or windshield. That was because I cleverly positioned my body to stop the piece of wood with my stomach
. It did leave one hell of a bruise.

[Alan S]

Safety rules don't exist in a vacuum.  Not only do people vary in their willingness (eagerness?) to be exposed to risk, but rules fit together to protect one.  A procedure safe in one context may not be safe in another, so sets of rules differ.

But the overall goals tend to be pretty similar, and the major violated goal in the video is that you should aim to control all of the workpiece all the way through the cut.  If this piece had been bevel cut off a wider piece, control of both parts would have been easier.

[wing nut]

PSA. I apologize in advance if this video has been posted and discussed here before. I just saw it on YouTube and it blew my mind. Had to watch a couple of times to fully understand how a minor little oversight on the table saw can have devastating consequences. Highly recommended.

 https://www.stumpynubs.com/caught-on-tap...-happened/

IIRC Stumpy Nubs was a member here. Not sure if he still posts but I really appreciate this particular one. Work safe everyone & stay healthy. Cheers.

Yea I had kick back a couple of times, when on the table saw I always prepare for kickback. 
First time young and niave, broke a couple of ribs.
second time stuck a piece in the wall.

[tablesawtom]

Safety rules are like speed limit laws. If I go out on the 4 lane that passes past my town and drive the speed limit I will get pasted by at least 20 cares in the twelve miles it takes to get to the exit. If I drive 5 miles over I will still get passed by at least 10. Two days ago  a Simi crossed the center space and had a head on collision with another Simi. One driver was air lifted to Rochester. I believe there is a law against that. It stopped traffic for 45 minutes. Was there righteous indignation over it? NO, it  is a fact of life and my daughter who had to wait about 40 minutes, was happy to just get home and said it was to bad and got on with her life.

The other day I was going to work and driving  45, 10, under the speed limit and (bang) a deer came out of the ditch and got on the road just in front of me . I was able to slow down and miss the deer, but I did get a little fur. My point is I was driving well under the speed limit( safety rules ) I had my bright lights on, ( Going above and beyond the safety rules) which help light up the ditches. I have driven the same road, at the same time for 3 years. I know to be especially careful at certain spots and where it happened wasn't one of them.

 Why did I miss the deer because I was exercising good judgment driving with a safe attitude and by not trusting my safety to the law. ( safety rules). But in all honesty if it had came out of the ditch 10 feet sooner I wouldn't have gotten to work on time. Even at 50 I try to be at work 10 minutes early. 

My point is if you drive a car and have never exceeded the speed limit, Always unplugged the sander before changing the sand paper, and always pulled the battery before changing the drill bit Then you can be filled with righteous indignation.  But if you brake one, one time, you will do it a gain and again. And you are guilty of braking them all. 

I am sorry but safety is your responsibility and yours alone. Safety rules can't protect you. Like Smoky the bear says only you can prevent forest fires. My attitude when driving far exceeded the law, but the deer was still there. 

In the video the man had a saw stop ( want to talk about safety) he did everything correctly, even his hand came not wears near the blade And yet the deer was there and came out of no where. The only rule never discussed and you don't see often in print is not to stand in the throw of the machine. So if you have never been hit with a kick back, broken the speed limit, ben involved in an automobile accident, nicked by a chisel, slipped on saw dust on the floor, then you have a right to puff yourself up. 

Me, I am thankful that it was posted and that I learned what can happen and purposed in my heart ( attitude) to remember and try not to let it happen to me. And My personal safety is My personal responsibility. And if My hand is not in a good position and I need to move it Now, not in 2 seconds, is determining to work as safely as possible ( attitude).

[MsNomer]

My first kickback sent a 12x12 chunk of oak sailing across a shop class full of people. It could easily have killed someone. The #$&* instructor just laughed and never told me what I had done wrong. Thank goodness for WoodNet.

I have never liked carrying the tail of the piece past the tail of the blade, in part because I don’t have a long reach, so I have adopted a procedure that works for me. As soon as the blade clears the wood (cut complete), I hit the off button and freeze until the blade stops. So I guess I’m safe from Stumpy's particular kickback. Good to know it could happen, though.

[Capel Sion]

Safety rules are like speed limit laws. If I go out on the 4 lane that passes past my town and drive the speed limit I will get pasted by at least 20 cares in the twelve miles it takes to get to the exit. If I drive 5 miles over I will still get passed by at least 10. Two days ago  a Simi crossed the center space and had a head on collision with another Simi. One driver was air lifted to Rochester. I believe there is a law against that. It stopped traffic for 45 minutes. Was there righteous indignation over it? NO, it  is a fact of life and my daughter who had to wait about 40 minutes, was happy to just get home and said it was to bad and got on with her life.

The other day I was going to work and driving  45, 10, under the speed limit and (bang) a deer came out of the ditch and got on the road just in front of me . I was able to slow down and miss the deer, but I did get a little fur. My point is I was driving well under the speed limit( safety rules ) I had my bright lights on, ( Going above and beyond the safety rules) which help light up the ditches. I have driven the same road, at the same time for 3 years. I know to be especially careful at certain spots and where it happened wasn't one of them.

 Why did I miss the deer because I was exercising good judgment driving with a safe attitude and by not trusting my safety to the law. ( safety rules). But in all honesty if it had came out of the ditch 10 feet sooner I wouldn't have gotten to work on time. Even at 50 I try to be at work 10 minutes early. 

My point is if you drive a car and have never exceeded the speed limit, Always unplugged the sander before changing the sand paper, and always pulled the battery before changing the drill bit Then you can be filled with righteous indignation.  But if you brake one, one time, you will do it a gain and again. And you are guilty of braking them all. 

I am sorry but safety is your responsibility and yours alone. Safety rules can't protect you. Like Smoky the bear says only you can prevent forest fires. My attitude when driving far exceeded the law, but the deer was still there. 

In the video the man had a saw stop ( want to talk about safety) he did everything correctly, even his hand came not wears near the blade And yet the deer was there and came out of no where. The only rule never discussed and you don't see often in print is not to stand in the throw of the machine. So if you have never been hit with a kick back, broken the speed limit, ben involved in an automobile accident, nicked by a chisel, slipped on saw dust on the floor, then you have a right to puff yourself up. 

Me, I am thankful that it was posted and that I learned what can happen and purposed in my heart ( attitude) to remember and try not to let it happen to me. And My personal safety is My personal responsibility. And if My hand is not in a good position and I need to move it Now, not in 2 seconds, is determining to work as safely as possible ( attitude).

Heh - I notice that bit above in red and, taking it with the rest of your post, I have decided never to get in a car with you, young man!  Since my safety during the journey would be "my responsibility alone" I would need to wrest the controls from you as you broke the speed limit to avoid being passed by others or ignored all the other rules of the road in favour of your personal judgements.  I mean, what if you decided to drive on the left hand side to please me, because I am British!?

But I feel you aren't up for a change of mind on this subject, despite my handy picture of all those safety gubbins on a TS that you might try. Of course, none of them will deal with a deer leaping in to your shed when you leave the door open.  :-)

Capel, feeling righteous but without the indignation. (Better than feeling wrongeous, bach, look-you).

[Bob10]

Have to admit you would have found fault with about 600 cuts yesterday.  The left hand pushing to the fence being the problem I am looking for a solution for cutting strips for a continually narrowing plank.  Push stick and block lands me behind the material I don't like being there.  I had Ipe kick back on me once when I was starting out, left quite a bruise and bled a little.  Probably have a few hundred more today to come up with a better procedure.