Tablesaw question

[Tapper]

If I wait till it breaks, I have to fix it, and will have no saw with an uncertain future of getting it back in commission.I can sell it now, for a profit. I understand the respect for Sawstop. I like them, but they are expensive. I had always allowed that my next saw would be a Unisaw, but we all know what happened there. I appreciate the build quality of sawstop but they are expensive. None of the dozens of tools I have that could lop off a finger include an automatic safety brake and I still have my digits. I think I would rather have a good tablesaw and perhaps a better bandsaw next year than a top of the line tablesaw that will take all my tool money, plus a bit.

Started out with one of those stamped steel tablesaws that was the epitome of an "accident waiting to happen." Then went to a Powermatic contractor saw, much better. Finally sprang for a factory reconditioned Unisaw. As I got older and met and heard of more people missing digits due to tablesaw accidents (still hasn't stopped) decided to take advantage of Sawstop's introductory offer on the PCS, a field test program. Reduced initial pricing, free shipping and a special price on the ICS mobile base. Filled out a questionnaire after six weeks of usage and sent it in. They later sent out a mod kit of improvement parts, free of charge.

What is my point? Sawstop is still a great deal at present pricing IMO, especially for the protection. If the PCS 1.75 HP version would work it's very competitive. Powermatic is still pretty proud of their saws, no safety brake. While you certainly could sustain a catastrophic injury with another tool in the shop (recently heard of a guy hurt pretty badly on a large bandsaw) most serious injuries occur on tablesaws. I've always been very safety conscious but as I get older worry about that "one moment of inattention." Sawstop removes that concern.

Doug

[jteneyck]

If I wait till it breaks, I have to fix it, and will have no saw with an uncertain future of getting it back in commission.I can sell it now, for a profit. I understand the respect for Sawstop. I like them, but they are expensive. I had always allowed that my next saw would be a Unisaw, but we all know what happened there. I appreciate the build quality of sawstop but they are expensive. None of the dozens of tools I have that could lop off a finger include an automatic safety brake and I still have my digits. I think I would rather have a good tablesaw and perhaps a better bandsaw next year than a top of the line tablesaw that will take all my tool money, plus a bit.

Well then look for a used Unisaw.  When you find one buy it and then sell your current saw.  My Unisaw was born the same year as me, 1954, and I'm quite sure it will outlive me by at least 2X.  Parts are available should you need them, though all I've needed was new arbor bearings and those are common and readily available.  The price of used equipment has gone up, too, but there are still good bargains out there.  I friend recently bought a very nice Unisaw with a bullet motor for $200.  The more typical price is more like $1000 but that's still a bargain for a good saw compared to anything comparable new.  

John

[Handplanesandmore]

While you certainly could sustain a catastrophic injury with another tool in the shop (recently heard of a guy hurt pretty badly on a large bandsaw) most serious injuries occur on tablesaws.

Doug

Except death and tax, everything else is a matter of probability. Since table saw injuries (mostly on hands and fingers) are #1 among all serious accidents in woodworking, removing that risk means significantly reducing serious injuries. Of course, it's reduction not elimination.

I always extend best wishes to anyone who doesn't want, can't afford or doesn't need the finger saving technology. Even a cut on my finger by a knife is painful for me, so I can't really imagine the pain from a saw blade incident. I don't want anyone to be injured by a table saw. For me the most scary tools are the tablesaw, miter saw and bandsaw (in order). I also use the tablesaw the most among them ---- practically in every project. That was why I was willing to pay so much money for it. But $4k wasn't anything when compared to a car, and I've bought/replaced half a dozen vehicles over the years. The ss would be my last tabesaw for sure.

Simon

[jteneyck]

Except death and tax, everything else is a matter of probability. Since table saw injuries (mostly on hands and fingers) are #1 among all serious accidents in woodworking, removing that risk means significantly reducing serious injuries. Of course, it's reduction not elimination.

I always extend best wishes to anyone who doesn't want, can't afford or doesn't need the finger saving technology. Even a cut on my finger by a knife is painful for me, so I can't really imagine the pain from a saw blade incident. I don't want anyone to be injured by a table saw. For me the most scary tools are the tablesaw, miter saw and bandsaw (in order). I also use the tablesaw the most among them ---- practically in every project. That was why I was willing to pay so much money for it. But $4k wasn't anything when compared to a car, and I've bought/replaced half a dozen vehicles over the years. The ss would be my last tabesaw for sure.

Simon

I couldn't agree with you more, Simon.  While I don't have a Sawstop, or a slider, those two options provide the greatest safety to the user.  There seems to be two entirely different mindsets with tablesaw users.  One group is willing to pony up the money for one or the other of those two saw types.  The other throws caution completely to the wind and won't even use a guard on a conventional saw.  Many of those folks have no riving knife or splitter either.  It doesn't help that most (all?) the DIY shows show people using tablesaws with no guard, etc. even though they have some wormy words at the beginning about always using all safety devices.  If I hear "The best safety device is your own common sense." one more time I think I'll scream.  Yes, of course you need common sense, but accidents can and do happen to plenty of folks who have an abundance of common sense with one glaring omission - they removed the safety devices that came with their tablesaw.  

Before all of you who removed the guards off your saws call me a jerk think about why you removed it.  Was it because you couldn't see the cut?  You don't need to.  Was it because the guard didn't work well?  Replace it with a Shark guard, etc.?  There is a solution for every argument I've ever heard.  Will the guard save you from every possibility of getting hurt?  Of course not, but together with your common sense it will greatly reduce the probability.  

Personally, the scariest machine in my shop was the shaper I had with no power feeder.  I got rid of it.  The most scary machine after that was my 16" resaw bandsaw.  That thing would take your arm off, not just a finger or two.  After using it a month or two I built a tall resaw featherboard that completely shields me from the blade when resawing wide stock or slicing veneer.  It's probably one of the safest machines to use now.  

John

[Tapper]

All good points John, but the fact remains that most catastrophic injuries in a shop are the result of tablesaw injuries, not shapers or bandsaws. Hospital statistics have confirmed it over and over. I have always agreed that all the things you mentioned above will improve your chances of not having a serious injury on a tablesaw. The ONLY thing presently that will absolutely, positively prevent a catastrophic tablesaw accident is a Sawstop tablesaw with its safety cartridge.

I do realize that not everyone has the resources to buy one, given the budgetary constraints that most families operate under. With kids, family priorities and other necessities that come along, often there is no extra monetary resources for a $3-4K investment in a SS. However, when this topic comes along I will continue to recommend that buyers look seriously at SS. I've known several people personally who's lives were permanently altered by tablesaw accidents. I think if you're going to pursue woodworking seriously as a vocation or a hobby, it warrants considering even taking out a loan to buy one if necessary.

There is no doubt that EVERY person alive who has suffered one of these accidents wishes he'd had a SS. As we know, closing the barn door after the horse is gone doesn't work. I hope no one ever has an accident in the shop.

Doug

[messmaker]

All good points John, but the fact remains that most catastrophic injuries in a shop are the result of tablesaw injuries, not shapers or bandsaws. Hospital statistics have confirmed it over and over. I have always agreed that all the things you mentioned above will improve your chances of not having a serious injury on a tablesaw. The ONLY thing presently that will absolutely, positively prevent a catastrophic tablesaw accident is a Sawstop tablesaw with its safety cartridge.

I do realize that not everyone has the resources to buy one, given the budgetary constraints that most families operate under. With kids, family priorities and other necessities that come along, often there is no extra monetary resources for a $3-4K investment in a SS. However, when this topic comes along I will continue to recommend that buyers look seriously at SS. I've known several people personally who's lives were permanently altered by tablesaw accidents. I think if you're going to pursue woodworking seriously as a vocation or a hobby, it warrants considering even taking out a loan to buy one if necessary.

There is no doubt that EVERY person alive who has suffered one of these accidents wishes he'd had a SS. As we know, closing the barn door after the horse is gone doesn't work. I hope no one ever has an accident in the shop.

Doug

I hesitate to bring this up but I have read more than once that there has not been a recorded case of someone losing a finger when using a properly functioning blade guard. This may or not be true, but if it is open for discussion, why is this not part of the conversation? I know you can not use a blade guard for all cuts, but for a great many you can. I have only used a Sawstop on a few occasions but the ones I used had an override function for the safety system in case you were working with wet lumber. This seems similar to working without a net, as you do with all other saws. You guys may have me convinced that a Sawstop is the only reasonable route to go. 10 amputations per day scares the hell out of me. I am a guy who likes to weigh my options and I am hearing that the smart money says I have but one choice.  I am going to have to think about it.

[jteneyck]

I hesitate to bring this up but I have read more than once that there has not been a recorded case of someone losing a finger when using a properly functioning blade guard. This may or not be true, but if it is open for discussion, why is this not part of the conversation? I know you can not use a blade guard for all cuts, but for a great many you can. I have only used a Sawstop on a few occasions but the ones I used had an override function for the safety system in case you were working with wet lumber. This seems similar to working without a net, as you do with all other saws. You guys may have me convinced that a Sawstop is the only reasonable route to go. 10 amputations per day scares the hell out of me. I am a guy who likes to weigh my options and I am hearing that the smart money says I have but one choice.  I am going to have to think about it.

I have not seen any data either way, but it's hard to imagine no one has lost a finger when the blade guard was on the saw.  TS's have been around for at least 50 years since guards were installed on them, and probably longer.  

A SawStop offers the best protection you can get, unless you defeat the safety feature.  However, a sliding tablesaw completely eliminates having your hands anywhere near the blade when you are using the slider.  Your risk is just as high as with a conventional TS if using the rip fence, however.  Everything is a compromise, even the SawStop.  

John

[Handplanesandmore]

I hesitate to bring this up but I have read more than once that there has not been a recorded case of someone losing a finger when using a properly functioning blade guard. This may or not be true, but if it is open for discussion, why is this not part of the conversation? I know you can not use a blade guard for all cuts, but for a great many you can. I have only used a Sawstop on a few occasions but the ones I used had an override function for the safety system in case you were working with wet lumber. This seems similar to working without a net, as you do with all other saws. You guys may have me convinced that a Sawstop is the only reasonable route to go. 10 amputations per day scares the hell out of me. I am a guy who likes to weigh my options and I am hearing that the smart money says I have but one choice.  I am going to have to think about it.

Your post contains two separate saw aspects----
- blade guard.  The ss comes with a blade guard and should be used (in conjunction with the ss tech) unless it cant be (such as when resawing or using the crosscut sled). The ss finger tech therefore is an added (and final) layer of protection.

- ss feature disabled. True, when working with wet wood, the added benefit is no longer there. If someone is working with wet all the time, the ss is useless to them and they shouldn't get a ss. Since 2004 as a ss user, I've probably only turned off the ss feature 2 or 3 times out of tens or hundreds (?) of thousands of cuts made. If I cut my fingers out of that kind of non-ss usage, the next day I should get a lottery ticket. But one can choose to never turn off the ss feature by using a different wood.

SS is not the only option to a hobbyist. The tracksaw may work......but at a price --- it's not good for dealing with small pieces (repetitive cuts), resawing, dadoes,  tenons, etc.

Simon

[Handplanesandmore]

  However, a sliding tablesaw completely eliminates having your hands anywhere near the blade when you are using the slider.  Your risk is just as high as with a conventional TS if using the rip fence, however.  Everything is a compromise, even the SawStop.  

John

Correct.

Accidents happen on sliders!!! Felder has invested a good deal of money on the development of the PCS to prevent those from happening, and the PCS feature isn't cheap.

The only compromise with the ss is money. I hope all other saw makers would soon be able to produce their versions of ss (within 5 to 10 years?) to bring down the price of a finger saving saw for woodworkers.

Simon

[meackerman]

Had a Unisaw since I bought one new in 1995. Smile every time I turn it on. Probably the last tablesaw I'll buy.


when someone comes out with a table saw that prevents kickbacks, that's when I'm really interested in upgrading.