saw making

[RonB1957]

Hi Ron,

Thank you! I still have this pink ivory to make a handle from.

I don't and we never have coated brass. I sand up to 2000 and than some autosol and then I'm done.
The best stock for spines is nickel silver (used for flatware). it just doesn't get old. (See my ebony saw above).
But since our spine maker died in December i don't know if I can offer any nickel silver spines again
except the 5 spines he made for me in Summer 2020 and still wait for the ebpony to dry.

Cheers
Pedder

Good morning Klaus.
     I will have to inquire about nickle silver from the machinist friend of mine. He has the full size mill, I wish I had.
Hoping to go visit him soon as he lives 5 hours away. A little one on one training, hopefully. Sorry to hear about your friend. I believe it was he that made some hardened anvil disc for my saw set. I have not bought any pink ivory for some time as it is quite expensive. Still have a full set of saws to make out of infused bog oak, but another day perhaps.
Take care.

[Tony Z]

Several questions: Ron, can you post a pic of your handle with the lamb's tongue? Next, I would like to see opinions (versus a folded back) about slotted backs and what is the saw plate holding methods for such a back? I know some are epoxied and some actually are pinned. I'm a traditionalist and like the looks of a folded back a bit better, but if one or the other offers advantages, I'm interested!

I actually have equipment to make either type of back, and could probably make saw plates. Problem is, I doubt anyone would pay the tariff needed. In other words, looking at saw making from a production standpoint, I fail to see how any maker could make this a full time job. To me, this is a labor of love.

[Timberwolf]

I feel as if your slotted saw plate has a problem, you are out of luck. I could be persuaded otherwise, but it seems like a folded back is superior if done correctly. Hard for me to differentiate saws other than feel and aesthetics if they are sharpened and set well. I have a couple that are slotted and glued. A LV saw, and an IT saw. They both cut dovetails etc just fine.

................
I have never heard of a saw plate coming out of the slot, but I am all for gluing them in...I have a saw I made more than ten years ago that has neither a folded nor a slotted back..The brass strips are 1/8" thick by 1" wide and I used JB Weld to glue them to the plate...no pins, no rivets and no screws holding them...just an epoxy "sandwich".
  Makes for a very stiff and heavy back that has served quite well for a decade. The plate was a new German "gent's saw that I had to sharpen to make it cut correctly...If the plates ever did work loose, I would just drill and rivet them back in place...Using this method, just about any competent woodworker could make their own saw as very little metal work is involved...IIRC a fellow Woodnetter,{ Kansas City Fireslayer} also made his saws that way but I believe he also riveted his as well as glued.

[Greg Jones]

Even before LV was making saws, they were using bubinga as handles for their Veritas hand planes, so asking Wenzloff to use bubinga just kept the theme alive.  My Wenzloff panel saw handle is nothing exotic.  It's beech.  I took a class from Wenzloff several years ago at the Woodworking in America in Berea, Kentucky.  Super nice guy.  Everyone who took the class got a small panel saw kit.

Yup, 2008-the first WIA event! I did not sign up for the Wenzloff class and once I heard he included the saw kit, I’ve been kicking myself ever since that I missed it.

[iclark]

................
I have never heard of a saw plate coming out of the slot, but I am all for gluing them in...

I do not want to hijack this thread, but I have a couple of saws for miter boxes where the back is no longer parallel to the teeth because the plate has come partially out of the back (more so towards the handle).

No problem for through-cuts, but it makes the depth stop for the miter box useless.

My guess is that users had trouble getting the hangers to release and tried to force them.

When I get caught up enough to work on them, I will start a thread for advise on HowTo tune them.

[TraditionalToolworks]

I do not want to hijack this thread, but I have a couple of saws for miter boxes where the back is no longer parallel to the teeth because the plate has come partially out of the back (more so towards the handle).

It must be your lucky day, you're right on topic for this thread!

This is the very reason I don't like folded backs. I have removed, cleaned and put back on quite a few...wasn't for all my saws, but for a good number of them. The whole concept of tension in any type of metal is phooey, IMO. But there is nothing wrong with a folded back, just that I think a slotted back is not only improved, but it just looks nicer with better detail.

I do use red loctite on mine, but I think you could clamp them in a vise and they will have enough to hold. I just think it's safer to use loctite.

Contrary to what Jack says, it's not exactly easy to slot backs well, but it is easy to buy them if you don't want to. The majority of saw makers buy their backs, and it is possible to slot them in a drill press...that's good for one or two saws, but try that with a dozen. It takes a bit of fiddling and making jigs to do it correctly and especially if you want to have the slot exactly in the center and parallel along the back. Sure, mills are accurate, but it's pretty easy to deviate in my experience.

OTOH, I do agree with Jack on folding them, but Mike Wenzloff used to fold backs also.It is not easy to fold them, and Leif did show the world how to accomplish that. Mike had a similar setup. He made both folded and slotted. The brass used for folding is entirely different and not the type you would want to mill. This is true of many metals. Nickel Stainless that Kaus mentioned is very hard and difficult to mill nicely. Brass is gummy as it has a lot of zinc, so presents other drifting issues, but it's CHEAP! Bronze tougher as it has tin. Aluminum Bronze is used in marine products, really tough to mill, but it looks beautiful if you have the right machine to do it.

The saws I have from Mike were before he started to slot them. In fact, it is before he even put his name on them. You can tell they are unmistakably Mike's saws. Mine are kinda interesting...they are folded, but they're not key-holed like Disston saws were, and most all folded backs in the day. EDIT: I just went and looked and embarrassed to say that I have 3 Wenzloff saws, I have a pair of small ones xcut/rip, those are similar to Disston, so 16 tpi possibly, maybe 15tpi on the xcut, and I have a Harvey Peace closed handle he did for me with a 4" plate, but it's really too short, I'm gonna cut the plate down to about 2-1/2".

Some are of the belief that the folded back is better, and others like the slotted, there is no right way, what matters is what you build with it. If you like building with a Pax saw, I see nothing wrong with it. Or whatever saw you like. There are so many styles and types and we have a lot of great saws today that are available, more so than 30 years ago. One of my is closed with a lamb's tongue. I once saw an ad on Ebay for a Clemson and Wheeler saw. The seller called it a lamb's tongue. I asked Mike about this but he had never heard it called that and me neither. But I did find out that carvers do have a lamb's tongue, so it was very fitting. I make a big one, and I call mine a Rolling Stone's tongue...LOL Some like open handles, some like closed. I think the closed handle is a lot more work, and requires patience to make them look nice. It's funny, cause Mike started using it regularly and now it's a detail people talk about all the time. LOL

And FWIW, the Bad Axe saws are beautifully done and I don't think anyone should feel cheated with that type of saw. Obviously the maker prefers that style as well.

And if you want to remove a plate from a slotted back, if the maker used loctite you can heat it up and it will come right off, then loctite it back in place. But unless you bend the plate you can just file new teeth. If you wear a saw out, it will most likely be your favorite.

With that said, I like the Richardsons, Peace, Darlington (cheaper Peace line), and there are a lot of people that don't like that style of how the bolt goes through the front/top of the handle through the back. And I wonder why they came up with that design? Do you think someone could have dropped a saw at one point? Again, the Internet Haters will hate me for saying stuff like this, but whatever...it's a tool at the end of the day, if you don't mind some boxy, clunky, fugly handle, by all means use it. But it doesn't mean that because someone appreciates quality tooling with details that your boxy, clunky handle don't have, don't feel intimidated. There are all types of opinions of a tool.

Josh, do you still have your page on the Harvey Peace stuff? I vaguely remember you had a site like kittytool or something like that. Those are my favorite American handles.

PS - Ron, Mike and his wife Dina had a huge stash of Pink Ivory. Mike had cool wood chunks piled up all over the kitchen and in the attic...his wife was a turner, so she made a lot of bowls and stuff like turners make. But Mike had all types of species he had hoarded over the years. Just like Konrad Sauer, he's probably one of the smarter people in regard to exotic wood hoarders. Ebony is very difficult to get the solid black stuff in my experience.I do have a few decent pieces, but they have always been hard to find in any decent sizes. Mike is the one that got me to start buying cool pieces and stashing them away for my work. But there is one problem with wood...insects. You need to be VERY careful how you store it.

[TraditionalToolworks]

I actually have equipment to make either type of back, and could probably make saw plates.  Problem is, I doubt anyone would pay the tariff needed.  In other words, looking at saw making from a production standpoint, I fail to see how any maker could make this a full time job.  To me, this is a labor of love.

I completely agree with you Tony, we could have even discussed this before. However, Skelton is showing us that high end boutique saws can sell. He just makes the finest saws, but dollars to doughnuts, he spends a lot of time crafting them.

Making saws would never work for a shop like yours unless you could mass produce them like Aria did, route the handles with CNC and water jet the teeth. Most makers just buy their bolts/split-nuts in bulk. I make mine, mainly because I don't make that many saws, and I do enjoy it. But that would never fly for a job shop like yours that needs to be profitable. For me it doesn't matter if I spend 2 hours making a few...it was a lot harder when I first started machining. I'm not sure if anyone makes bronze split-nuts, I'm sure they must. I'm not the only one that used them. I milled mine out of 932/660 bronze, I love that stuff, just wish it wasn't so expensive. Even Shane can't afford to use bronze for all his saws. Seems more of them are brass, but he definitely makes some of them out of bronze.

If you want to build something with only machines, you would need to make a saw like Rob Lee makes. If you make a saw that can be done on CNC, then it can be profitable for a shop like yours. Don't you agree?

[Tony Z]

Don’t bet on anything being profitable in this day and age, Alan! There are challenges on everything we used to take for granted!

There are many excellent saws available, but, unless just a wall hanger, all will need sharpened. We all seem mostly hypnotized by dovetail saws, yet to someone who uses their tools, many others are used much, much more.

I love threads, such as this one! Many tidbits of info to ponder, file away and try at a future date.

[AHill]

I'm gonna throw in another great sawmaker into the mix: Tools for Working Wood's Gramercy saws. The handles tend to favor those with small hands, but they are excellent saws and each one is hand-sharpened before delivery. As well, they make tools for saw makers, e.g. a saw handle rasp and split nut driver. And they make a pretty decent saw vise. I think their etch on their saws ranks among the best of current new production saws.

[Timberwolf]

I'm gonna throw in another great sawmaker into the mix:  Tools for Working Wood's Gramercy saws.  The handles tend to favor those with small hands, but they are excellent saws and each one is hand-sharpened before delivery.  As well, they make tools for saw makers, e.g. a saw handle rasp and split nut driver.  And they make a pretty decent saw vise.  I think their etch on their saws ranks among the best of current new production saws.

..................
Lil
I didn't mean to infer that milling an accurate slot in a chunk of brass is "easy", but IMO it's a heckova lot easier than making a folded back...if you know what you are doing. There's much less "hand work" once the mill, drill press whatever is set up..and once you have the machine set accurately, you can mill slots all day without much effort. I can do it on my little mini-mill.

Speaking of back saws, I was visiting Phil Baker at his home a few years ago {He had a collection of over 500 saws} and Phil showed me one of his rarest saws. I don't remember the manufacturer..It had a closed handle, and a plate about 12" long..But the brass "spine" was round, and threaded where it went through the handle..I am estimating the brass spine to have been almost 1/2" in diameter in the slotted area and about 5/16" or 3/8" through the wood handle, with a recessed nut on the inside..Phil gave me a couple of photos of it but I have misplaced them, and now I can't remember all the details. But in all my years of searching Ebay, tool meets etc, I have never seen one like it. Now that Phil has passed, I don't know what has happened to his collection, but he told me that he had a small museum in Georgia that he was going to give them to...Phil was about five years older than me and I will be 90 this Sept. if I make it.