04-16-2022, 06:17 PM
This is one of those controversial topics, but the forum seems fairly civil these days and I'd like to toss this out on the workbench, so to speak. (sorry, some American cheese for 'ya for free!) I will try to explain this so that in case you don't understand some of these concepts you may after reading this, but if I mis-state something please some of you other more knowledgeable, please let me know.
This relates to what is known as tensioning the saw plate by hitting it with a ball peen hammer on an anvil, as well as how many refer to the folded back on handsaws has some magical property that will keep the proper tension to the plate.
All of this is supposed to keep the saw plate flat. On a perfect saw you would have a perfectly flat plate, with equally distanced teeth to create just enough width so the blade didn't bind, and the plate would be slippery smooth as you cut through any type of sappy or dried out wood (which also contain saps). But as many of you know, we don't live in a perfect world and I realize that even when I sharpen my handsaw I will not get it perfect, but it will average out between all the teeth to get a clean cut through the wood. This is something that I learned from watching Tom Law's old video on saw sharpening. What a classic, it was before Jennie Alexander realized she wasn't John, if that makes sense? I hope the haters don't come after me on that piece of American Cheese!
Next I would like to talk about "upsetting", a common term used by blacksmith when they forge steel, often some type of iron. This is taking a hammer, often a peen or a rounding hammer is what I use, to basically distort and move the metal around...to spread it out, widen it, but to change the physical shape of the metal as once it cools it's pretty much like that for good. It will not change but slightly due to temperature, but it will change back to the place it was at prior to this extreme condition. For this reason machinists will often heat/freeze components to fit them together, such as bearings, but it's only like .001"-.002" is most cases, metal doesn't move like wood does due to the properties.
Now let's talking about the way a tree hold tension in it, this is what I really refer to as tension. This tension will give you a bad hair day quick even cutting with even a pit saw, the grain can be so strong this tension will cause the tree to basically unravel and expand as you cut away fibers that are holding it from unraveling. Metal doesn't do this, metal just shrinks a small amount in only extreme temp conditions.
I have also used the peening method in the past with the intent that I know I'm upsetting the saw plate, but I'm using it in a way to flatten the plate, and it probably just gets down to the terminology I have a difference with. However, the way it is used makes people subconsciously think about this "tension" as correlating to stress. This difference of view has gotten me into heated discussions with people, but I have always just wanted to have a rational conversation about it. I think I may have a better way, but it is not yet proven.
My idea is that we can use heat also to change the shape of metal. Often when welding we need to keep the heat towards the thick piece of metal if both are not the same thickness/size, as the heat can be a problem. This is also true when upsetting metal, you can upset too much and distort it in the opposite direction than desired.
What I would like to hear any of your thoughts on is do you think using heat could be a better way to get a saw plate flattened to as close to flat as we can? Rather than using a peen to beat it into submission? I think using a torch with heat could allow you to place the heat into a specific area, but using a tig torch could issolate the amount of heat to such a small area, the danger of destroying a saw plate would be to burn through the material entirely, or what is known as blowout in the welding world. If the material gets hot enough that it starts to melt, it will continue to melt faster that you can move in some cases, and can cause bigger issues in itself. Better in this situation to stop immediately and let it cool. But we can control heat much better than we can a peen, so there are advantages, IMO.
I'm just curious if anyone else thinks heat might do less damage to the metal in the end, than you would do by peening it with a ball peen or similar non-flat hammer.
But here's an idea I have been pondering.
DISCLAIMER: I'm similar to Underhill, I use humor, or what I find to be humor is the way I look at things. This seems to have been done through the history of America. I'm sure we were spouting this type of humor at the Brits the entire time they tries to take our possessions or violate our rights to privacy of what we own. I know many people don't like me here, but I'm ok with that. I don't want to be any adversary type people. It's easy to move along, but even if you opposed my view in the opposite direction, I will still off you the courtesy to your view.
This relates to what is known as tensioning the saw plate by hitting it with a ball peen hammer on an anvil, as well as how many refer to the folded back on handsaws has some magical property that will keep the proper tension to the plate.
All of this is supposed to keep the saw plate flat. On a perfect saw you would have a perfectly flat plate, with equally distanced teeth to create just enough width so the blade didn't bind, and the plate would be slippery smooth as you cut through any type of sappy or dried out wood (which also contain saps). But as many of you know, we don't live in a perfect world and I realize that even when I sharpen my handsaw I will not get it perfect, but it will average out between all the teeth to get a clean cut through the wood. This is something that I learned from watching Tom Law's old video on saw sharpening. What a classic, it was before Jennie Alexander realized she wasn't John, if that makes sense? I hope the haters don't come after me on that piece of American Cheese!
Next I would like to talk about "upsetting", a common term used by blacksmith when they forge steel, often some type of iron. This is taking a hammer, often a peen or a rounding hammer is what I use, to basically distort and move the metal around...to spread it out, widen it, but to change the physical shape of the metal as once it cools it's pretty much like that for good. It will not change but slightly due to temperature, but it will change back to the place it was at prior to this extreme condition. For this reason machinists will often heat/freeze components to fit them together, such as bearings, but it's only like .001"-.002" is most cases, metal doesn't move like wood does due to the properties.
Now let's talking about the way a tree hold tension in it, this is what I really refer to as tension. This tension will give you a bad hair day quick even cutting with even a pit saw, the grain can be so strong this tension will cause the tree to basically unravel and expand as you cut away fibers that are holding it from unraveling. Metal doesn't do this, metal just shrinks a small amount in only extreme temp conditions.
I have also used the peening method in the past with the intent that I know I'm upsetting the saw plate, but I'm using it in a way to flatten the plate, and it probably just gets down to the terminology I have a difference with. However, the way it is used makes people subconsciously think about this "tension" as correlating to stress. This difference of view has gotten me into heated discussions with people, but I have always just wanted to have a rational conversation about it. I think I may have a better way, but it is not yet proven.
My idea is that we can use heat also to change the shape of metal. Often when welding we need to keep the heat towards the thick piece of metal if both are not the same thickness/size, as the heat can be a problem. This is also true when upsetting metal, you can upset too much and distort it in the opposite direction than desired.
What I would like to hear any of your thoughts on is do you think using heat could be a better way to get a saw plate flattened to as close to flat as we can? Rather than using a peen to beat it into submission? I think using a torch with heat could allow you to place the heat into a specific area, but using a tig torch could issolate the amount of heat to such a small area, the danger of destroying a saw plate would be to burn through the material entirely, or what is known as blowout in the welding world. If the material gets hot enough that it starts to melt, it will continue to melt faster that you can move in some cases, and can cause bigger issues in itself. Better in this situation to stop immediately and let it cool. But we can control heat much better than we can a peen, so there are advantages, IMO.
I'm just curious if anyone else thinks heat might do less damage to the metal in the end, than you would do by peening it with a ball peen or similar non-flat hammer.
But here's an idea I have been pondering.
DISCLAIMER: I'm similar to Underhill, I use humor, or what I find to be humor is the way I look at things. This seems to have been done through the history of America. I'm sure we were spouting this type of humor at the Brits the entire time they tries to take our possessions or violate our rights to privacy of what we own. I know many people don't like me here, but I'm ok with that. I don't want to be any adversary type people. It's easy to move along, but even if you opposed my view in the opposite direction, I will still off you the courtesy to your view.
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
