saw making

[AHill]

Not sure he's been mentioned in this thread, but Ron Herman from Ohio had more saw knowledge in his little finger than most users will know in a lifetime. He was a contributor to PWW and taught classes at WIA back in the day. He ran a furniture restoration business in Ohio. He doesn't build saws, but he's a very skilled woodworker I remember him bringing 4 or 5 tool chests full of saws for one WIA. He said there were very few duplicates, but they were sharpened differently and in multiple tpi - all individually meeting a specific kind of cut. Fine cuts, rip cuts, crosscuts, wet wood, dry wood, ripping mouldings, plywood, etc. I learned more about saws in a couple of his classes than I had reading any book on the subject. He still teaches classes, and he will sharpen or tune up a saw for a reasonable price.

https://www.woodworkingwithron.com/

[RonB1957]

Not sure he's been mentioned in this thread, but Ron Herman from Ohio had more saw knowledge in his little finger than most users will know in a lifetime.  He was a contributor to PWW and taught classes at WIA back in the day.  He ran a furniture restoration business in Ohio.  He doesn't build saws, but he's a very skilled woodworker  I remember him bringing 4 or 5 tool chests full of saws for one WIA.  He said there were very few duplicates, but they were sharpened differently and in multiple tpi - all individually meeting a specific kind of cut.  Fine cuts, rip cuts, crosscuts, wet wood, dry wood, ripping mouldings, plywood, etc.  I learned more about saws in a couple of his classes than I had reading any book on the subject.  He still teaches classes, and he will sharpen or tune up a saw for a reasonable price.

https://www.woodworkingwithron.com/

He was traveling a bit with the wood working shows the last time I saw him. He made a pretty good saw sharpening video as well.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Does anybody have any saws, or other tools, sold by Colonial Williamsburg?

I'd always heard about the numbers of tools George and his crew made and it never made sense to me that Williamsburg itself would need that many, even over an extended number of years.  That they made tools and sold them fills in the blank.

XLNT question. I don't know of anyone that has any of them. I'm not sure they sold them though, they didn't many I don't think.

First, what are we calling "that many"? I once saw a picture of a bunch of full size handsaws that George claimed were identical to the ones in the Seaton chest, but Mike Wenzloff somehow had pictures and showed how they were not the same and there was some discussion about the tapers, but I can't remember what.

I know they supposedly made chisels as well, so I heard. There was a famous gunsmith that made muskets or flint lock rifles, his name was Wallace Gussler (sp?).

I was under the impression they supplied tools to people building colonial type pieces for Williamsburg.

I'd love to just see some of them in use. They looked like decent saws, but trying to hold a discussion with George was like trying to get a pig to dance, at least for me. And all the while the pig is swearing and calling you names, if trying to get him to dance is not bad enough. He was not very free with sharing the info on the tools in too much detail, not sure why.

[CStan]

I've heard that George made "100s of saw while at CW."  They had to have been for outside consumption as I can't imagine they'd need that many for the craftsmen there even over a period of many years.  One backsaw could last a man an entire career or close to it and certainly in a demonstrating environment like CW it could.  It is not a production environment, except apparently for tools!

I've never heard somebody mention owning one in twenty years' time spent participating on woodworking forums. Surely a few would have turned up.

I wonder where they all went.

[Tony Z]

I've heard that George made "100s of saw while at CW."  They had to have been for outside consumption as I can't imagine they'd need that many for the craftsmen there even over a period of many years.  One backsaw could last a man an entire career or close to it and certainly in a demonstrating environment like CW it could.  It is not production environment, except apparently for tools!

I've never heard somebody mention owning one in twenty years' time spent participating on woodworking forums.

I wonder where they all went?  As we say down South -- sump'n don't gee-haw.

Don’t have a horse in this race, but George did appear in one or two episodes of “The Woodwright’s Shop”. In one, he was in period costume, describing an ellipse device he made. I vaguely recall another when he described working in the CW tool shop (production). When George Wilson was active on forums, he described tools he made, as well as musical instruments. I cannot recall him alluding to building hundreds of anything.

Roy Underhill was a house wright, though he filmed some episodes at the Anthony Hay cabinet shop. By his personality, Roy is easy to like, whereas George could be a bit acerbic. Forums are funny things as some that post communicate far better than others and some are held in higher regard than some that have more depth.

[CStan]

I do have a specific memory of large numbers being asserted by somebody (perhaps not George), and I remember thinking that it didn't make sense in the context of what would have been used just on premises at CW.

Not a big deal, and not something I care to spend too much time on follow-up.

I don't know diddly about making musical instruments. I do know there are a lot of people out there making guitars and even harpsichords-- just as there are many furnituremakers out there. There's some outfit that even makes harpsichord kits if you can imagine that:

http://www.renwks.com/products/harpsicho...ichord.htm

[Derek Cohen]

I recall having seen a photo (posted by George) of lines of dovetail and tenon saws on a table at CW which he either made or supervised their making. All made to the same pattern, and they did resemble backsaws George has made that are his own.

George's saws ..







Link to article: https://research.colonialwilliamsburg.or.../tools.cfm

Regards from Perth

Derek

[CStan]

I recall having seen a photo (posted by George) of lines of dovetail and tenon saws on a table at CW which he either made or supervised their making. All made to the same pattern, and they did resemble backsaws George has made that are his own.

George's saws ..







Link to article: https://research.colonialwilliamsburg.or.../tools.cfm

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for clearing that up.  As for the saws... meh.

https://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Flinn-Dove...B077XT2Q9D

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154550540775?...SwB41hBAPT

Many more on UK EBay.

Were they copies of English saws, or copies of Colonial copies of English saws? I did see where the rules they made were direct copies of an English rule. They look like a Rabone I bought on EBay for ten bucks and are still widely available on EBay - solid boxwood and all. The Brits don't seem to have had much trouble producing these in bulk. Thankfully the numbers on mine are not "askew" but of course it wasn't made in the 18th C. either, but otherwise looks exactly the same.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=...d&_sacat=0

Can somebody elucidate what it was George and his group were doing that was substantively different than English firms were doing continuously for 300+ years up through the early 1980s and later? I'm not really seeing it.

Tell me what it is I'm supposed to be celebrating. If it's extraordinary craftsmanship then please clue me in on the nuance I'm missing. Otherwise, it looks like any one of many small, but thoroughly mechanized tool making operations. Are these supposed to have been superior to say, something offered by Lie-Nielsen? Independence before them?

I've heard all this sizzle for the last fifteen years or so. Tell me about the steak.

[AHill]

Thanks for clearing that up.  As for the saws... meh.

https://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Flinn-Dove...B077XT2Q9D

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154550540775?...SwB41hBAPT

Many more on UK EBay.

Were they copies of English saws, or copies of Colonial copies of English saws?  I did see where the rules they made were direct copies of an English rule.  They look like a Rabone I bought on EBay for ten bucks and are still widely available on EBay - solid boxwood and all.  The Brits don't seem to have had much trouble producing these in bulk.  Thankfully the numbers on mine are not "askew" but of course it wasn't made in the 18th C. either, but otherwise looks exactly the same.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=...d&_sacat=0

Can somebody elucidate what it was George and his group were doing that was substantively different than English firms were doing continuously for 300+ years up through the early 1980s and later?  I'm not really seeing it. 

Tell me what it is I'm supposed to be celebrating. If it's extraordinary craftsmanship then please clue me in on the nuance I'm missing.  Otherwise, it looks like any one of many small, but thoroughly mechanized tool making operations.  Are these supposed to have been superior to say, something offered by Lie-Nielsen?  Independence before them? 

I've heard all this sizzle for the last fifteen years or so.  Tell me about the steak.

The Thomas Pax 1776 saw from Amazon is $50 more than Highland Woodworking sells it.

I always thought it strange that Colonial Williamsburg used modern machinery to make reproductions of tools supposedly used in the colonies.  I would have thought their toolmakers would demonstrate how those were make back in the day.  So the saws they were selling were no more authentic than Mike Wenzloff's Seaton series.  If anything, they were better because the tools they used to create them held better tolerances than colonial methods and the steel is higher quality.

I remember Roy Underhill quitting Colonial Williamsburg because he thought they were creating some things that weren't authentic to colonial times.  They wanted him to create slaves' quarters to look shoddy, which wasn't authentic.

[Timberwolf]

The Thomas Pax 1776 saw from Amazon is $50 more than Highland Woodworking sells it.

I always thought it strange that Colonial Williamsburg used modern machinery to make reproductions of tools supposedly used in the colonies.  I would have thought their toolmakers would demonstrate how those were make back in the day.  So the saws they were selling were no more authentic than Mike Wenzloff's Seaton series.  If anything, they were better because the tools they used to create them held better tolerances than colonial methods and the steel is higher quality.

I remember Roy Underhill quitting Colonial Williamsburg because he thought they were creating some things that weren't authentic to colonial times.  They wanted him to create slaves' quarters to look shoddy, which wasn't authentic.

..................
I always thought it strange that Colonial Williamsburg used modern machinery to make reproductions of tools supposedly used in the colonies.

It is "odd" on the face of it but CW is in the business of making money and could not sell the hand made saws for what they would cost to produce today. Machines don't have to make a living..plus I am convinced that early tool makers would gladly embrace any machine that made their work easier and in most cases, produce more tools that were just as serviceable..Disston was a good example...producing saws that craftsmen of the day could afford by using machines to produce them..And a smart businessman, he frequently did what businesses still do...buy out the competition.