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Ivan, you're correct - we will just have to agree to disagree. I haven't gotten "down in the weeds" on this yet, but my understanding is that he did make a "reasonable" offer to all the major manufacturers and they banded together and stonewalled him, i.e. as in a conspiracy.
He had/has every right to defend his patents; it's what patents are for. If his suits have no validity they will be dismissed. There's a reason most schools and other large entities that use tablesaws are going to Sawstops. It absolutely protects ALL who use them from catastrophic injury AND any ensuing lawsuits that may result from any source.
My guess is that his offer to all the major manufacturers looks pretty good right now in hindsight. Bad decision on their part IMO.
This reminds me of all the "Snowflakes" that got their feathers ruffled because of Trump's "mean tweets" and voted for Biden. How're you enjoying that $5+ a gallon gasoline, just for starters.
But I digress.........
Doug
"A vote is not a valentine. You aren't professing your love for the candidate. It's a chess move for the world you want to live in."
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KC: You are right about the dead horse. Other than the license fees being more than any of the manufacturers were willing to pay, I never heard an amount. I do think that there is a difference between pricing oneself out of a market and all of the manufacturers colluding to suppress a technology.
What put it over the top for me was Gass funding the law suit against a TS manufacturer by an illegal alien who spoke no English on a work crew where the foreman spoke no Spanish and he was using a TS with no safety training and no guards, fences, or guides/gauges when he was injured.
Doug: Please keep the politics in the basement.
I see this as more like the Unisys submarine patent that killed gif's on the net when the makers of the web servers and web browsers would not meet their royalty demands.
The SS technology does not protect the people who have it turned off because of its problems with pressure-treated wood or they are cutting electrically conducting composites. Somehow, those lawsuits do not seem to go against SS (at least, not publicly).
"the most important safety feature on any tool is the one between your ears." - Ken Vick
A wish for you all: May you keep buying green bananas.
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11-05-2022, 04:51 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-07-2022, 03:35 PM by Tapper.)
The reason those lawsuits have no traction against Sawstop is because the manufacturer makes it clear that the safety device WILL NOT WORK on those materials.
Doug
"A vote is not a valentine. You aren't professing your love for the candidate. It's a chess move for the world you want to live in."
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Location: North Central Illinois
I had no intention of even looking at a Sawstop saw.
One of my best friends suddenly passed away and his wife offered his saw to me.
It is the Pro saw.
Given the interest that my grandson has in my workshop is what compelled me to get it.
Picked it up two days ago.
It is sitting in the shed in one of our dump trucks as of now.
When my new shop is built it will be in there along with my Powermatic 66.
I guess I will give it a go.....
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2Beast: did you receive the manual? If you didn't, on-lines copies available here --
https://www.sawstop.com/product-category/table-saws/
Click on the saw you have and when the information loads, scroll down and click on "manuals".
SawStop manuals are very well written and illustrated. When I ordered my sw several yeras ago, I printed out the manual and read it 2-3 times to become acquainted with the saw and its "idiosyncrasies".
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My future SIL didn't even think about any saw but the SS. He just bought his first TS and it's the PCS 3 30". While working at his job he almost took a couple fingers off - he knew the only saw he was going to look at was the SS.
I showed him mine last Christmas - that pretty much sold it.
John
Always use the right tool for the job.
We need to clean house.
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12-16-2022, 12:18 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2022, 12:19 PM by Handplanesandmore.)
Some people still hold a grudge against the brand even though the business is no longer Gass's. I hope for those people, the finger-saving clones will come soon and also at competitive prices. The patents are said to be nearing their end. Every woodworker deserves such protection, as every driver does from the seat belts and airbags.
Simon
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12-16-2022, 11:46 PM
(12-16-2022, 12:18 PM)Handplanesandmore Wrote: Some people still hold a grudge against the brand even though the business is no longer Gass's. I hope for those people, the finger-saving clones will come soon and also at competitive prices. The patents are said to be nearing their end. Every woodworker deserves such protection, as every driver does from the seat belts and airbags.
Simon
The Bosch Reaxx was a completely different technology from the SawStop, but the legal system decided that the SawStop patents included all table saws incorporating active injury mitigation technology and components. That meant that it also stopped the commercial implementation of the techniques that remotely sensed the hand/fingers approaching the blade and shut the saw down.
The final legal decision banning the Reaxx was issued in March 2017. TTS Tooltechnic Systems (the parent company of Festool) acquired the SawStop company in mid-2017. I believe that, in concept, Festool could include the finger-saving technology in their panel saws.
It looks like the SS patents expire over the next 3yr. I could not easily find the expiration date for the key patent that owns all approaches that incorporate active injury mitigation technology.
I really wanted to buy a Reaxx since I liked the way that Bosch implemented the safety system and the price was good. I have been very happy with the Bosch contractor TS that I have and with the quality of the Bosch hand tools that I have been buying more recently. I am careful to use all of the appropriate guards and safety accessories for my current TS on the rare occasion that it comes out of storage. It is very rare for me to need to rip a board and I have not started doing segmented or staved turning.
"the most important safety feature on any tool is the one between your ears." - Ken Vick
A wish for you all: May you keep buying green bananas.
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1+ on the Bosch Reaxx. I usually avoid these threads because they have a tendency to ruffle lots of feathers, but since this one is already here. I think the Sawstop team were threatened by the Bosch Reaxx because it didn't destroy the blade. If other companies licensed that tech from Bosch, it would significantly cut into their market share. Who would buy the saw that saves your fingers at the cost of the blade when you could have both your fingers and the blade.
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There are many patents that cover the SS technology; a quick google search this morning showed 100 of them, but the search also highlighted that many of those patents are continuations of the previous patent. I'm not a patent lawyer and don't intend to turn into one, so I don't know which of those patents tripped up the Reaxx.
Having had to sit through corporate seminars on intellectual properties in my latter working years, I do know that granted patents have to be actively defended by the patent holder. It's the patent holder's responsibility to be on the lookout for infringements. If the patent holder fails to do that, their exclusive use and ability to license the technology might not be enforceable.
I can understand SS's aggressive stance on those patents. I have no idea what licensing costs competing companies refused to pay, and I don't know that anybody has brought that out into the public domain. I'm only mildly curious about how much SS wanted in royalties for their technology.
All that said, I'm happy with my SS PCS. Nearly 11 years old and going great.
Ray
(formerly "WxMan")
