I think track saws are magic

[Handplanesandmore]

You can laugh all you want,  but but, I can do what a domino machine can do with my home made machine And I can do it tilted at any angle because the table is also a 5 inch sign bar. I can cut a 6 inch by 6 inch mortice through a 5 inch thick beam, and anywhere in between. I say 5 inch beam because that is the longest cutter I have. Did I mention dovetails.







But the older and cheaper solution works just as well. Yes it does. I remodeled a church Kitchen and built them all new cabinmates. Usually I may brake down 6 sheets of plywood a year nor but that job took 35 sheets.
Using high end track saws and the whole system of tables with holes and the likes is just another way of throwing money at a hobby. I lot of people chose to use home made jigs to do a job because there isn't enough money for football, baseball, and soccer shoes, piano lessons all at the same time. And the list can go on and on

I am writing this because for a lot of people out there cost is not a prime consideration, but the prime consideration. 

This is what I have used for 30 years. And I have a zero clearance insert, which a track saw doesn't.



As far as dust collection, I still do it the old fashion way, I use a broom and a dust pan.

Several points in your post need some responses.

-----You can laugh all you want,  but but, I can do what a domino machine can do with my home made machine

That shouldn't surprise me because the domino machine has only been around for 20 years? and things still got done before its invention. The point is about efficiency. People use dowels too .... but we know they are no where as efficient as a domino machine in the hands of a seasoned domino machine user. Cabinet makers bring the machine to the work no matter how big the work is, but they can't do that with shop based machines and jigs. There's nothing wrong with using shopmade solutions but please please don't say any of them can replace the domino machine. People who think so mostly because they don't even know enough about the machine, let alone use it enough. You dont know what you dont know as they say.

==--I am writing this because for a lot of people out there cost is not a prime consideration, but the prime consideration.

Exactly the point I wrote about why some choosing the more economical options. Nothing wrong about it either. But the Wen + Powertrack eg are not the same as festool or mafell tracksaw system. Many people don't need such a high end system at all and that's fine.

----As far as dust collection, I still do it the old fashion way, I use a broom and a dust pan.

Many contractors who buy into the festool system, esp those in the EU, brag about their "dustless construction" work as a selling point. Dust extraction and broom and dust pan are obviously not the same thing even to someone who knows nothing about woodworking. Dust collection at source is a best practice.

Simon

[tablesawtom]

I have been doing a lot of research on track saws. I have read all the specks on the different brands and watched numerous YouTube videos comparing the different brands. It would be nice to have a battery powered saw that I   I could use it anywhere. I have the 18 volt Makita system so it would be a major player. But if I am going to use the dust collection option then I see no reason to go battery because I have the hose connected, why not have the electrical wire connected also. But I could use the saw anywhere and when available I could use it with the dust collection. Just some of the considerations I have went through.

I have decided not to buy a track saw. I have decided to stay with my system pictured on my previous post. My reasoning is cost verses duplicating what I already have. Do I gain that much by upgrading?  At 77 no I do not. 

If I were 50 years younger and didn't have what I have, then yes, I would buy a track saw in a heart beat. I am not a professional contractor so I would tend to stay corded, batteries do go bad eventually. See I don't really have that decided as of yet

Menards has a 6 1/2 inch track saw for $200. It comes with 8 foot of track and clamps. Although I would trend to want the least amount of splices and possible in the track  and their track comes in 4 pieces. If I didn't like it I can take it back. The same goes for Hone Depot and Lowes. Not so much Amazon. One doesn't usually buy a used car without driving it and I think a track saw it like a used car.

If I was going the buy a track saw I would buy the best I could afford. Personally I think Festool is over rated and the law of diminishing return applies. But if you like Festool then by all means go for it. You can't be wrong.

Tom

[Handplanesandmore]

Tom,

I agree about the cordless tracksaw being of little benefit if it's used with a corded dust extractor. Cordless tracksaws come with a (filtered) bag that I was told are quite good. But for some job sites (new houses with no power yet), cordless track saws paired with a cordless dust extractor may appeal to some trade people.

I don't own a tracksaw or mft though I used them (festool) in one of my previous occupational jobs. I wouldn't ditch my trusted tablesaw for the tracksaw system. You need a lot of workarounds or pricey accessories to make it work like a tablesaw. Tracksaws are good for breaking down sheet goods but struggle in some tasks that are considered a piece of cake on the tablesaw. Numerous discussions on that aspect can be found in the festool forum.

Simon

[tablesawtom]

Several points in your post need some responses.

-----You can laugh all you want,  but but, I can do what a domino machine can do with my home made machine

That shouldn't surprise me because the domino machine has only been around for 20 years? and things still got done before its invention. The point is about efficiency. People use dowels too .... but we know they are no where as efficient as a domino machine in the hands of a seasoned domino machine user. Cabinet makers bring the machine to the work no matter how big the work is, but they can't do that with shop based machines and jigs. There's nothing wrong with using shopmade solutions but please please don't say any of them can replace the domino machine. People who think so mostly because they don't even know enough about the machine, let alone use it enough. You dont know what you dont know as they say.

==--I am writing this because for a lot of people out there cost is not a prime consideration, but the prime consideration.

Exactly the point I wrote about why some choosing the more economical options. Nothing wrong about it either. But the Wen + Powertrack eg are not the same as festool or mafell tracksaw system. Many people don't need such a high end system at all and that's fine.

----As far as dust collection, I still do it the old fashion way, I use a broom and a dust pan.

Many contractors who buy into the festool system, esp those in the EU, brag about their "dustless construction" work as a selling point. Dust extraction and broom and dust pan are obviously not the same thing even to someone who knows nothing about woodworking. Dust collection at source is a best practice.

Simon

Simon, I do agree with you to a point. If and If, I was a contractor doing new construction then dust collection is not a big issue. If I was doing a lot of in home remodeling then dust collection would be a very important issue and I would probably go with a Festool.  But how many people out there are professional contractors. 

I can compete with the domino machine all day long and I am not in a professional cabinate shop and I would wager a guess that at least 85 % of the people on this forum are not either. using your argument, many people don't need such a high end system as a domino machine at over $1,000. Maybe they like building jigs. Maybe they Just enjoy  working wood. 

Dust collection, I have 4 dust collectors in the basement ( 2 ) 3hp)  (1) 2hp and 1 1hp. I can get pictures if you would like. I also have (2 ) 1 hp dust collectors in my main shop not to mention 2 air collectors hanging from the ceiling and I still can't get it all. And Believe me I try to get it at the source. I still have to vacuum and usually I use a broom first and then use the vac so give me a rest on dust collection.

You can laugh at people but I can't.

Tom

[Handplanesandmore]

You can laugh at people but I can't.

Tom

I laugh at half-cooked propositions and outrageous suggestions, not at people. If you don't laugh at people as you say, you shouldn't put words into someone's mouth either.

Simon

[KC]

I laugh at half-cooked propositions and outrageous suggestions, not at people. If you don't laugh at people as you say, you shouldn't put words into someone's mouth either.

Simon

I know it's historically unlikely, but one of you has to the first to stop.

[FS7]

I know it's historically unlikely, but one of you has to the first to stop.

Seems civil to me, and I'm actually learning a lot from this exchange. Because of my YouTube history, I get plenty of suggestions for woodworking videos, and there are more than a few interesting channels I follow. One video just yesterday was a joint comparison test (relatively simplified and not original) but one of the points he brought up that I had actually never really considered is that some people enjoy the process more than the result. I'm an engineer and a scientist, so my drive professionally is ultimately to achieve the result as quickly and efficiently as possible. But I know there are hobbyists who write code just for the heck of it.

Ultimately, the same is probably true of wood. What I see is a lot of creativity in making tools and jigs, and my guess is that Tom enjoys the process of making tools and jigs as much as or more than the intended result. And in that discussion it had occurred to me that a main selling point of dust collection would be for professionals who need to leave a clean job site. I for the life of me can't comprehend the utility of a Festool vacuum as compared to something else, but I mean to each their own. My dust collection system is not professional and not perfect, but it keeps the shop relatively clean and that's good enough for me. I would probably find a dustpan and broom therapeutic and relaxing if that were an option for me. It's just interesting that there's a huge span of opinions from this isn't a problem and doesn't need to be solved (dustpan and broom for dust collection), to this could be a little bit easier so a simple jig or tool helps (zero clearance jig for ripping), to this is a huge problem and a solution needs to be overengineered and expensive (Festool vacuum). None of those is objectively right or wrong and it all depends on the application.

Another thing that's true is that we as hobbyists (and professionals and former professionals, I know they're here) do a lot that isn't necessary. This thread was ultimately about my bar project, and here's a prime example.


I had a lot of big hurdles (logistically) to get this project moving - planning and running wiring and plumbing, then buying the pipe and wire to do it, buying the lumber and the plywood at twice my previous highest material cost for any project, buying the flooring, and (soon) tearing the carpet and baseboard out to actually get started installing. I have the first two cabinets finished now and ready to go. The first to the wall will have the sink, the macerating pump, cutout for the existing receptacle, plumbing entrance - basically the service entrance for the bar. Now I don't know why, but I got the idea that instead of a dead panel I wanted to have one of those fancy tilt shelves. So I did. It's a bar sink. I axed the idea of a small dishwasher a long time ago, though I could've done that too. As a bar sink, it's not going to see a whole lot of use besides rinsing glasses. I can store a few things in there, but I am not sure I even remotely have a need to. It's just something I did as an experiment.

In other news, being a perfectionist is a bad idea. The second cabinet has a somewhat warped cabinet door (serves me right for going the "simple" route with frame and panel) and it's not in such a way that it would stay closed. It's the top and also the knob side, so I'm waiting on a magnet to keep that closed and flush. And despite my best efforts, the drawer seems to be not be particularly square, so I had to shim the slides with washers to angle them so the drawer sits fairly flush. Now on both of those points, I have checked my existing cabinets, and there's probably not a single drawer in this house that sits perfectly flush (except the ones I made, I mean). And even though all of the cabinet doors are raised panels, some of them don't close perfectly. I never noticed, but now I have.

[jteneyck]

Being a perfectionist is what makes you a woodworker who turns out beautiful work.  No apologies needed.  I know it causes all manner of angst, hurt burn, endless evaluation of alternatives, sleepless nights, and second guessing of decisions.  I know.  There are others who share your affliction/addiction to perfection.  

John

[Handplanesandmore]

some people enjoy the process more than the result.

There are a lot of those people, including some who spend time and money on perfecting their woodshops with little actual output in the form of objects. (Bandits in the handtool forum is almost an exact opposite of them, caring little about how the shop looks as he tirelessly keeps on making things.). Both help make the woodworking world a better place for all.

One guy in the festool forum spent lots of energy and came up with his way of cutting narrow strips on the mft using the tracksaw (with the aid of dogs and various workarounds), something that takes seconds to do on a tablesaw. Well, he enjoyed it, and that's what counted. But, he didn't say or proclaim that his method could replace the tablesaw.

By the way, we are lucky that KC isn't a moderator.

Simon

[fishhh4]

About 3 years ago the wife wanted me to build a Murphy bed. That's a plywood extensive project and the perfect excuse to buy a track saw.
Not knowing how much I would use it, I cheaped out and bought a Wen track saw and Powertec track just like the OP.  I agree with all his observations. Not a pro level tool for sure but it's accurate and gets the job done. For the occasional use, I think it hits the right price-performance spot.

I have the same setup as well. It has done what I have asked of it...well!