Anyone here have a profitable woodworking business?

[PVW]

Reason I ask is that a long time friend just informed me that her 40-some year old son has formed a business. 

Also sent a few photos of what he is making and I am not impressed -- a Kamado grill surround which I can buy anywhere. 

Saying this having owned a large high end shop for 20+ years, and prior to about 15 years ago.

Before giving her my opinion on his new venture I wanted to check with you guys.

profitable,not really but it pays the bills

[2link2]

I've replied to this thread already....three and a half years ago. I think the world is very different now than even then. Realistically, with global supply chains (present day excluded) and cheap labor elsewhere, it is quite difficult to compete with mass-produced furniture available. Make no mistake, there ARE clients who want handmade (and American-made) furniture - or, for that matter, handmade furniture from their home community or country. I know we have a few overseas forum members and I'm sure the sentiment is the same there.

Many of us have built larger or more decorative pieces. Cabinets, dressers, chests, cribs, you name it. We can speculate as to their market value, but regardless of what we come up with it's almost certainly going to be at least ten times what a similar category thing costs at Ikea or Target. Again, there are clients who will pay for that, but they are orders of magnitude fewer than those who buy the flat pack alternative.

I think as a rule what makes the most money are the "boring" things - for me, that's cutting boards, cheese boards, serving trays, charcuterie boards (all the same thing, really) and small turned items like bottle openers or wine stoppers. It's far easier to quantify labor time and materials cost to determine a profit margin.

In any case, what I meant when I said that the world is very different now is a guy like Cam with Blacktail Studio. He makes primarily epoxy tables as far as I can tell, and he works with massive and incredibly beautiful live-edge slabs. I know his tables sell for quite a bit, but they do take a fair amount of time and the materials are not cheap. He has to pay to work with a commercial shop's wide belt, and transporting and working with things like that will eventually take a toll on your body (ask me how I know). But he's good at making videos (his wife was in marketing, so that probably helps) and he documents with professional-quality videos what he does on each video. After a few years on YouTube, this translates into over a million subscribers and roughly $500K a year from YouTube alone. So he might make money doing woodworking alone, but the vast majority of his income at this point is from YouTube - and that channel doesn't exist unless he makes the tables. It's hard to really grasp for me even though I have - you make some amount X from selling the fruits of your labor, but you make 5X or 10X from chronicling and sharing the process.

Kinda sad but so true. We (anybody that clicks on YT vid) have become the product. Not sure where it that will end up. Also not sure why it bothers me some computer tracks me & sells my info. pretty much every little click to company's who's computer tells em I will buy there stuff. 
Hats off to the guys smart enough to take advantage of that market while it lasts.

[hcbph]

When someone says "woodworker" this usually means something that looks like it came from a high school shop class.  This thread has replies from several successful business owners, including artists (carvers) and another from a successful business that sells urns made from wood, but I would not call these folks "woodworkers."   

It seems like many really good furniture makers that seem to make most of their money from woodworker classes (Paul Sellers, David Marks, etc.)

Read the whole thread and found some interesting and familiar thing others ran into.  I did woodworking since the 60's, commercially as a side job since the 90's so I'll add some thoughts.  First off, few will make enough money to live on.  Second on, unless you develop the right audience, your work will not be appreciated for what the true costs are.  Few have the time or money to last while trying to develop clientele for custom furniture or other high end projects.  Things like kitchen cabinets, you'll find you already have a fair amount of competition before you ever open your doors so how will you differentiate your projects from someone else's?  
If you decide to make small things like jewelry boxes, don't think most places that will take your stuff on consignment are actually interesting in selling your stuff, rather they may only be using it to highlight their stuff they want to sell.  Finding your niche will be the hardest thing to do in this scenario.
Factor in things like zoning laws, taxes, licenses, insurance, etc. in your plan as many don't and it can come back to bite them.
In my case I found that my niche was furniture restoration and repair, but I worked in conjunction with several refinishing shops.  They got the jobs, dealt with the customers, dealt with everything except the actual restoration or repairs needed for their jobs, which was the areas I wanted to do.  At one time I had 5 or 6 shops I was dealing with and always had work pending.  I was able to work at my schedule on a reasonable time frame.  They did not have the expense of a repair person, the cost of machines or materials so it was a win-win for everyone.  I had a day job, and this was for enjoyment and tool/materials money so it worked out well for me.  I did this till I retired a couple of years ago.  Now I have a full shop of tools and use it to make things for us and friends, so there is no pressure to perform.
My 2 cents.

[Snipe Hunter]

I had a kitchen remodel shop basically stop talking to me because he demanded that I give him a budget number, even though I told him I had no idea what the project would cost, when I pulled a number from my butt, it was too low.

We found another contractor who was willing to educate us. Maybe people who can be educated about such things are few and far between.

I sold commercial construction in the 80's. My kids were young and I was always traveling. I needed a job where I could come home each night. I looked in the newspaper and there was a service writer opening at a car dealer. Figured I'd do this till I found something that suited me better. I was a lousy service writer. I'm much better with 1 client at a time. Not a steady stream of them all day long... I learned something about myself. I told the dealer that I was looking for other employment and they asked me if I was interested in selling cars. I was hesitant but gave it a shot. The dealer was owned by a big dealer group and provided sales training.. lots of sales training. I wound up staying in that business from 1991 to 2006. One year I tied with another guy selling the most cars in the Mid Atlantic region. Not because I was a great salesman but because I followed up with everybody I ever waited on or sold a car to forever. I sent out about 5000 thank you cards birthday cards, service coupons "thinking about you" cards every month. After a while, I had so much repeat and referral business that I rarely waited on new customers. I just worked hard following up. I wound up managing 3 car dealers.... not by design but by happenstance. I learned that I liked managing a business but not people. Not that the people were bad but I struggled with making sure everybody in the dealership earned enough to feed their families. That was in my head 24/7 and it wasn't healthy. Just about everybody in that business lives on commission so they had to produce at a high level to make a decent living. I could do it but not everybody can without a lot of help. At that point I needed to step away from the business or die young.

Everything I learned about people and running my own business I learned from selling cars. I had about 5 minutes to meet someone, ask all the right qualifying questions and get the prospect to trust me to earn the right to ask for the sale. A lot of people go into business without those skills and no matter what they sell, they will fail. They don't ask the right questions, don't listen and don't ask for the sale. They try to wow the prospect into buying the product. They might ask "What can I do to get you to buy a car today?" I never said those exact words but I did ask the question. Just disguised it a bit. I needed to know the answer to sell the car. Most people are not natural born salesmen, I wasn't. But it can be taught and learned. I'm a good salesman but a lousy marketer. I pay a marketing company to do all my marketing. They even do my website and my Facebook page. I don't even look at them. But I do the sales and I still spend a lot of my down time mailing newsletters (follow up) and contacting prospective clients. Every business in every market has competition. 4 gas stations on one intersection and they all sell gas but one of them always out performs the other 3. He's doing something different. Maybe it's price. Maybe he has real good coffee but he is doing something different.

When I started the home inspection business, all my marketing money was spent in high income, high property value, high density and high turnover areas. I don't live in that area but 90% of by business is there. Less than 5% of my business comes from my website or other online listings. The cheap guys get their business off the internet. Although in the beginning, all of it came from the internet. Most of it comes from word of mouth. Word of mouth clients already trust me because their agent or their friend trusts me. It's an easy sell.

So If I were starting a woodworking business I would want to know which people want to buy my product. I would need to know what my materials and labor cost and what kind of a margin I needed to make a living and how much I need to sell and create a game-plan. I'd need know where those people are who want and can afford my product. And only market directly to them. Marketing costs the same in the projects and in the ritzy areas. Might as well market where I can charge more. I'd need to know my my personal living expenses and make sure I have it in the bank to survive the 1st couple years while I'm trying to establish my business. I'd read a lot of books on starting a business and lots of sales books and learn how ask the right questions and how to quickly close a sale and overcome objection... like price, delivery times etc. If I don't close a sale quickly they will shop around until they find a real salesman and buy from him/her. No matter the quality of the product. Fortunately there are very few good salesmen in the home inspection business. If my product is good and I follow up after the sale and present myself and my company professionally and provide service levels and products that my competition doesn't (set myself apart), I have a shot at succeeding. The large franchises have good salespeople and they sell at about twice the price as the cheap guys and they stay busy. I keep my prices just below the big franchise companies. Maybe 2-3% below. But I'm making a good deal more because I don't pay franchise fees which are about 30%.

A lot of new business owners don't create a business and marketing plan. They get a website place, some adds and just wing it. Everybody thinks they'll make it and do ok. Very few really understand the work involved in building a business. Even a small business.

Plan your work and work your plan. Create a projected timeline with $$ milestones. If you aren't meeting those goals/milestones. Know when to get out.

It's been very inspirational watching Packerguy's progress, Lee Valley's progress, Grizzly Tools progress. Does anybody remember Dave Dingman (sp). He was building extremely high end antique replica furniture to order. As far as I was concerned, he was better than anybody else I've seen and his prices reflected it . Follow inspirational, successful people and ask them questions. Do what they do. If you don't close a sale call the client back and ask them why. Knowledge is power.

Sorry for the long post

[tomsteve]

Your take might be right, but you would be shocked how many people that have grown up in the ikea/screw together particle board furniture generation will buy something, if even poorly built if they save substantial money. 

pallet wood furniture was a money maker a while ago. i wouldnt be surprised if a lot of it is either in landfills or used for a bonfire

[FrankAtl]

"Does anybody remember Dave Dingman (sp)"

I believe it was Dave Diamon (may have spelled it wrong too).

I agree, his work was amazing and I miss him posting here.

Frank

[Gary G™]

"Does anybody remember Dave Dingman (sp)"

I believe it was Dave Diamon (may have spelled it wrong too).

I agree, his work was amazing and I miss him posting here.

Frank

David Diaman

https://www.custommade.com/by/diamanwoodcrafters/

An incredibly talented guy!

[Snipe Hunter]

"Does anybody remember Dave Dingman (sp)"

I believe it was Dave Diamon (may have spelled it wrong too).

I agree, his work was amazing and I miss him posting here.

Frank

That's it. Several years ago I went up north of Baltimore to see a historic mansion he had a hand in furnishing. Spectacular workmanship. I could spot the new work because it was the flawless. I asked the tour guide about all the furniture. Some was donated and loaned and some was commissioned work. All of it was insured for over 1 million. Just the furniture

[greatscott]

David Diaman

https://www.custommade.com/by/diamanwoodcrafters/

An incredibly talented guy!

That guy's build posts were incredible.  And he would occassionally sell of his scrap boards (highly figured) which were amazing themselves.

[packerguy®]

That guy's build posts were incredible.  And he would occassionally sell of his scrap boards (highly figured) which were amazing themselves.

I bought a fair amount from him. Still have 3-4 larger offcuts of pre embargo cuban mahogany. Really unicorn stuff.