All you might want to know about sole "flatness"

[Timberwolf]

cannot be found here on Woodnet...but it's a place to start..IMO, the two subjects most discussed on Woodnet are No.1.. sharpening and No2..flattening....but so far, no one has been able to define when the pinnacle of each each is achieved.

I did a little Youtubing this morning and found several channels that were very well done. I had an old Stanley catalog with a photo showing a Stanley employee holding a long plane's cast iron sole against a horizontal 12" wide sanding belt. I have not been able to find one showing the plane being ground on a precision machine.. But I was most impressed with one channel showing a very accurate method of "hand scraping" a Stanley #5.. I believe that "accurate scraping" produces the best results but it comes at a very high price in time and material. And if "flatness" is important to you, it may be worth it. Keep in mind tho, that the Japanese woodworker has used planes made out of wood for centuries and the results are amazing...And we know that wood is an actively moving organic material.


Scraping a sole.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0ACMMm-ZGc

[Tony Z]

cannot be found here on Woodnet...but it's a place to start..IMO, the two subjects most discussed on Woodnet are No.1.. sharpening and No2..flattening....but so far, no one has been able to define when the pinnacle of each each is achieved.

I did a little Youtubing this morning and found several channels that were very well done. I had an old Stanley catalog with a photo showing a Stanley employee holding a long plane's cast iron sole against a horizontal 12" wide sanding belt. I have not been able to find one showing the plane being ground on a precision machine.. But I was most impressed with one channel showing a very accurate method of "hand scraping" a Stanley #5.. I believe that "accurate scraping" produces the best results but it comes at a very high price in time and material. And if "flatness" is important to you, it may be worth it. Keep in mind tho, that the Japanese woodworker has used planes made out of wood for centuries and the results are amazing...And we know that wood is an actively moving organic material.


Scraping a sole.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0ACMMm-ZGc

About twenty years ago, I had an old guy (probably younger than I am today!), that was a bonafide machinist. I had him scrape a MF #9 smoother for me, and though his fussing drove me crazy, the sole is as close to flat as possible. I've had others that claimed to be as skilled but never came close. What is humorous are those guys not even out of their twenties, that claim to be journeyman toolmakers or machinists.

I have multiple surface grinders but not one big enough to do a #8. Even if I did, I doubt that any of my guys would know how to fixture the sole.

If anyone is interested, my website is metaltech-pm.com. One of my son-in-laws is CEO of the largest domestic maker of equipment for our industry. His family business is gasbarre.com.

[Timberwolf]

About twenty years ago, I had an old guy (probably younger than I am today!), that was a bonafide machinist.  I had him scrape a MF #9 smoother for me, and though his fussing drove me crazy, the sole is as close to flat as possible.  I've had others that claimed to be as skilled but never came close.  What is humorous are those guys not even out of their twenties, that claim to be journeyman toolmakers or machinists.

I have multiple surface grinders but not one big enough to do a #8.  Even if I did, I doubt that any of my guys would know how to fixture the sole.

If anyone is interested, my website is metaltech-pm.com.  One of my son-in-laws is CEO of the largest domestic maker of equipment for our industry.  His family business is gasbarre.com.

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I'm glad for your input, Tony...thank you...The machine shop that I worked in as an apprentice in the late forties had a 36" Blanchard altho I never got the chance to operate it..Our shop ground a lot of Marine Engine cylinder heads etc for the Coast Guard and hydroplane racers etc. back "in the day"...you have to be on top of your game to operate one, that's for sure...Tom has made a good living at it for many years...

Here's a link to a Blanchard 18-36 that was up for sale..There's a short sales video that demonstrates it for those who are not familiar with the process.......

http://www.industrialsurplus.com/grdrs/047-157.htm

[Ricky]

I watched that hand scraped video recently. Pretty cool, especially for those that use that equipment for other purposes and have it handy.

[Tony Z]

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I'm glad for your input, Tony...thank you...The machine shop that I worked in as an apprentice in the late forties had a 36" Blanchard altho I never got the chance to operate it..Our shop ground a lot of Marine Engine cylinder heads etc for the Coast Guard and hydroplane racers etc. back "in the day"...you have to be on top of your game to operate one, that's for sure...Tom has made a good living at it for many years...

Here's a link to a Blanchard 18-36 that was up for sale..There's a short  sales video that demonstrates it for those who are not familiar with the process.......

http://www.industrialsurplus.com/grdrs/047-157.htm

I'm envious of the skill sets of guys like Tom! Even guys going through apprenticeship programs would be lost in fixturing & running a large surface grinder.

My SIL has several very large Blanchard grinders. About a decade ago, I did have one of his guys weld and grind a plane sole that I had. It would not pass for a sole that had not been broke, but it worked as well as one.

Anyone that is anywhere close to DuBois, PA is welcome to stop by. I'll show off my plant and then my SIL's local plants.

Finally, Jack, several weeks ago, my wife and went to the Shady Maple Smorgasbord. Only thing I can say is, we're going back!

[tablesawtom]

I do not know nor do I care what the exact date they started making metal planes was Somewhere during or just after the Civil war. They probably became popular because of being easier to adjust the blade, but that is just my take on the subject. Wooden planes can probably be traced back to early Egypt. in the Orient I have no idea.

Yes, I know that belt sanders were used to finish the bottoms of planes. The belt sanders were Stationary machines not portable. Today usually the largest belt sander we see today is a 6x 48.  I do not know how many sanders with different grits were used per plane. Please bear into account that we are talking 100 to 1150 year old technology. and how flat would very on what day of the week it was done and what time of the day it was. you hoped that the plane wasn't mad or Monday or Friday. 

Most of the machinery produced  (pre !970) had cast iron ways and then after all the machining they were hand scraped. Hand scrapping is not real hard work but is it tedious and requires a great amount of required skill, years of experience. Can a metal plane be hand scrapped, yes. But at least 80 percent of what I see on You Tub holds my interest for about 2 minutes. An example is giving a talk about planes and saying a ceap plane that doesn't have machined seat for the frog is a good buy for a beginner.  They can show you anything because they do not have to prove what they are shoveling.

Today with the modern machines and so on, I can guarantee that all of the high end planes are surface ground.  The machine my shop has, is in the 60,000 to 75,000 dollar range new and is capable of being straight and true to .0001

General knowledge,  by the end of WW11 the farmer had pretty much switched over from horses to tractors and industry has moved on also. The stuff you see on You tube is for entertainment only and not taken real seriously.

Tom

[Timberwolf]

I'm envious of the skill sets of guys like Tom!  Even guys going through apprenticeship programs would be lost in fixturing & running a large surface grinder.

My SIL has several very large Blanchard grinders.  About a decade ago, I did have one of his guys weld and grind a plane sole that I had.  It would not pass for a sole that had not been broke, but it worked as well as one.

Anyone that is anywhere close to DuBois, PA is welcome to stop by.  I'll show off my plant and then my SIL's local plants.

Finally, Jack, several weeks ago, my wife and went to the Shady Maple Smorgasbord.  Only thing I can say is, we're going back!

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The Shady Maple comment sure stirred up some good memories, Tony!!! To me it's one of the major delights of a visit to the beautiful Amish Country of Pennsylvania!! It's best to go when you're really hungry...like when you haven't eaten for a couple of days!!!
..I am always like a "mad dog in a meat house" when I go!!!!! Las Vegas Casino Buffets can't really compare to it!!!!! They're probably charging $50.00 a plate these days, if not more!!! But it's darn well worth it!!!

[Tony Z]

Can't recall how much it was, but I don't think it was even $30/person!

I'm anxiously waiting for Tom's posts on grinding the 608! Doing a job like that requires skillsets that are few and far between.

[Timberwolf]

Can't recall how much it was, but I don't think it was even $30/person!

I'm anxiously waiting for Tom's posts on grinding the 608!  Doing a job like that requires skillsets that are few and far between.

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It was before covid the last time I went and IIRC it was $20.00. so $30.00 would be a real bargain in my book!!!!!

[GNP]

Thanks for that link, Jack. I've never heard of scraping metal before.