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FarRed said:
Better question is: where to find knot-free Douglas fir? I assumed the knots would be similar to pine. That mis-perception resulted having to resharpen a couple of my planes. Paul said the knots were bad, but I had no idea they were like rocks. I did find some clear fir, but it was over $6/bf. I can buy walnut for that price.
I've built a few benches now using Douglas Fir from the home centers. Picking through the piles and selecting best faces and edges. Certainly not knot free, but manageable. And you will need to resharpen your planes no mater what the project. If they weren't sharp enough to take end-grain shavings that could hold together, they weren't sharp enough to deal with knots in the first place. Knots are essentially end-grain. Chopping mortises in bench legs made of Douglas Fir, we spent a fair amount of time sharpening chisels. The transition between the early and late wood growth rings was only kept reasonably smooth using the sharpest tools. Starting with a fore (jack) plane and a cambered iron across and diagonal to the grain. Finishing with a try plane along the grain. Not much sense in using a smoothing plane to get a pristine surface on a workbench. I know P.S. espouses the joys and utility of a #4 smoothing plane, and they are great. But for not a whole lot of money a #5 ($25-50) and a #7 ($50-100) really make the work easier. The sharpening is (was) good practice. Embrace it.
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. -- G. Carlin
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It is threads like this that make this forum great. I find Sellers interesting and pragmatic. I've posted about his use of simple chisels for mortising vs. mortise chisels. Personally I don't think that anyone has a corner on all of the good advise or methods that can be fruitfully used in woodworking. I gain a good bit of my understanding from seeing different viewpoints from 18th century hand tool work to today's CNC equipment and realizing there are many roads to Rome. I fall into the avid hobbyist category who hopes to leave a few things behind to his family and who appreciates the diversion it gives from a stressful day job.
Thanks to the contributors for making this such a wonderful thread.
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Thanks for the reply on such an old thread.
It isn't just that they dull, I get significant nicks. With DF (or whatever Home Depot calls "whitewood"), it isn't just that the knots are end grain, but that they are cemented with hardened sap. I can plane thru pine knots no problem. I picked thru the pile, and the best I could find was one edge knot-free and minimal on the other edge. The glue surfaces, of course were disasters, which is where I ran into problems. If I could find just two good boards for the front and back, I'd just cut out the knot sections from the other 2x4s, making the top out of pieces. A lot more work of course. The soft maple is looking better, but I can't justify laying out $200. I get two thrills out of woodworking--(1) the work itself (2) doing it on the cheap.
I agree with 5 and 7, although I used a 4 as well for variety.
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Take a lesson from The Woodwright Shop. Use southern yellow oine 2x12s. Because the widest boards (2x12) come from the widest part of the tree, the edges are often nice quarter sawn grain. You can waste a lot of wood, but SYP 2x12s are pretty cheap.
A bit more expensive, but not by much is to purchae 1x4 SYP at home depot. Pick through the pile, about every one in a dozen boards will be nearly all quarter sawn. I spent a little time every time i went to Home Depot picking through the SYP 1"x4"x12'. I used this stock recently to laminate three pieces for the legs of my bench. Workedmgreat as i used the center board for tennon, and left a gap for mortise! Worked graat!
As far as the other 'stuff' in this thread, nobody is a guru to everyone, we all have different interests etc. sellers bench is one that resembles what i have seen refered to as a 'Nicholson Bench'.
Lastly, the books by Lon Schenling, and Scott Landis are both excellent, as i am sure Schwartz's is too. Read read read.
Roger
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FarRed said:
Thanks for the reply on such an old thread.
It isn't just that they dull, I get significant nicks. With DF (or whatever Home Depot calls "whitewood"), it isn't just that the knots are end grain, but that they are cemented with hardened sap. I can plane thru pine knots no problem. I picked thru the pile, and the best I could find was one edge knot-free and minimal on the other edge. The glue surfaces, of course were disasters, which is where I ran into problems. If I could find just two good boards for the front and back, I'd just cut out the knot sections from the other 2x4s, making the top out of pieces. A lot more work of course. The soft maple is looking better, but I can't justify laying out $200. I get two thrills out of woodworking--(1) the work itself (2) doing it on the cheap.
I agree with 5 and 7, although I used a 4 as well for variety.
At least in the Home Depot stores in my area, Douglas Fir is labeled as Douglas Fir and the other stuff is marked SPF for "Spruce/Pine/Fir". You are on your own to identify it. Once in a while I get lucky and there are real, honest to goodness yellow pine 2 x whatever's mixed in the bunker. Boards wider than 2x4 tend to be a bit better so I usually look only at the 2x8s and larger stock. It is too bad your experience with Douglas Fir and its knots was so torturous.  While I have had a blade damaged by Douglas Fir and its knots (broke a tooth on a LN62 toothed blade, A2 steel) I seldom have the sort of difficulties you describe. At least not so much as to make me stop using Douglas Fir for shop fixtures. I have a mix of new and vintage planes and chisels so a little bit of W1 (a few chisels), some O1 (about 1/2 my plane blades and chisels) and A2 (most of the other half) and some D2 (? I forget now, but it is not A2 or O1 alloy, rather some knifemaker's steel). Other than the ones I know are W1, I generally keep things between 30 and 35* and have minimal trouble with chipping. Except when I'm not paying attention and drop the chisel on the concrete floor. Just keep at it and maybe increase the angle on the blades a few more degrees. Or it could just be some wonky steel from the factory hardening process. It has been known to happen and the good stuff is 1/16" to 1/8" back.
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. -- G. Carlin
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Pine knots can certainly be hard, but if the knots are seriously chipping your plane's edge, then it sounds like you may be trying to take too thick a shaving. That or the bevel on the iron is at too steep an angle, making the edge too fragile. Try a slightly higher bevel angle. You can go all the way up to 35 degrees if you like.
Steve S.
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Pine isn't a problem, just the DF--hard as rocks.
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Don't know your location, or situation, but SYP is rare here in the Pac. NW. and about as variable as Doug fir in my limited experience.
I admit to hating hand planing DF. Even clear old growth can be a pain.
Wilbur Pan picked 4x beam stock selectively over several months, I think he said. Borg framing (2x anything) is the worst wood I see. I now go to local yards for any day-to-day wood I need. After that it is specialty shops who advertise on Craig's List.
One thing that I have learned is that shy of hardwood, heavy timber (second hand) is going to be the easiest and most economical choice. I priced one bench at $30 in funky looking stuff that was perfect for the task. The timbers even came with twelve inch bolts. I saw a 14x5+x 8' timber last week for $50. It would go into my Prius, easy.
Oh, BTW, Seller's recent testimonial for his vise layout really intrigued me.
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Where I live Home Depot is the only game in town near me. Their wood selection is pathetic, and their so called white wood is a royal pain to smooth. I have not seen anything in SYP here except for a 2 X 12 and I guess maybe I need to start buying a few and cut them down, I have not seen any 1 X material here in SYP. They do sell some "premium pine" in 1 X for a premium price. I have not done any projects lately that warranted that kind of wood as I have been making things for my Garage / Workshop. When I lived in Ft. Myers I could get Douglas Fir at HD but for some reason here they sell crap  . Steve
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Also I forgot to mention, I have been using my 5' Paul Sellers bench now for a little over 3 months and for me it is a joy to use. The finished height is 38 1/2" and I have had no problem planning, or sawing with that height and my back has not hurt at all. I must say also the Record 52 1/2 vice and adapting Paul's clamping method has worked like a champ for me as well. I did put a few holdfast holes on the top for my holdfasts but don't use them much now, but they are there if I need them.
Steve
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