Dovetail Saws
#11
  Re: (...)
I have cut dovetail with a Japanese saw before but I am taking a class in a month and would like to use a western style saw. Probably has to do with the romance of it. Anyway I have pretty much decided on buying a Lie Nielson saw, but has anyone got any ideas on straight or tapered? I know tapered was kind of the old tradition but that's it. Any input would be appreciated.

RonL
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#12
  Re: Dovetail Saws by RonL (I have cut dovetail ...)
RonL said:


I have cut dovetail with a Japanese saw before but I am taking a class in a month and would like to use a western style saw. Probably has to do with the romance of it. Anyway I have pretty much decided on buying a Lie Nielson saw, but has anyone got any ideas on straight or tapered? I know tapered was kind of the old tradition but that's it. Any input would be appreciated.

RonL




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#13
  Re: Dovetail Saws by RonL (I have cut dovetail ...)
Now that's a turnabout - 20-30 years ago, the romance was in the Japanese saws!
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#14
  Re: Dovetail Saws by RonL (I have cut dovetail ...)
I'm assuming you've read the article from Lost Arts Press that Lie-Nielsen links to from their tapered dovetail saw page. I don't think most of us would notice the difference between a tapered saw and a non-tapered saw. There are other options as well, that are similarly priced. The Gramercy dovetail saw is pretty nice, as well as the Veritas saw. I've owned all three (LN non-tapered, Gramercy, and Veritas), and find the Gramercy handle fits best on my small hand, but it also cuts the slowest out of all of them. The Veritas is the easiest to start. The LN cuts the fastest. Much of what you like in a dovetail saw is personal preference. For me, I find myself using the LN most often. It's a really good saw. Any of the three I mentioned are quite serviceable.
Still Learning,

Allan Hill
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#15
  Re: Dovetail Saws by RonL (I have cut dovetail ...)
I have used most brands of DT saws on the market and I have found that the LN saws suit me better than the rest. Having said that, you should note that the LN tapered saw is also their thin plate .015 model: the non-tapered standard saw has a .020 plate. IMHO, you may be better off with the standard saw if you are just starting out. I found that the thin plate, which gets better and better as I become a better sawyer, is not as forgiving as the standard plate, when your sawing form is not quite spot on.
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#16
  Re: Re: Dovetail Saws by Bill_Houghton (Now that's a turnabo...)
Bill_Houghton said:


Now that's a turnabout - 20-30 years ago, the romance was in the Japanese saws!




Maybe that’s my fault, since I keep writing about Japanese tools in terms of their actual physical characteristics.

My bad.



Now, if you had said that 20-30 years ago, the awesomeness was in the Japanese saws, that statement was true then, and it’s still true today.

Hail St. Roy, Full of Grace, The Schwarz is with thee.
Blessed art thou among woodworkers, and blessed is the fruit of thy saw, dovetails.
Holy St. Roy, Master of Chisels, pray for us sharpeners now, and at the hour of planing.
Amen.
$300 is a lot of Money!
giant Cypress: Japanese tool blog
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#17
  Re: Dovetail Saws by RonL (I have cut dovetail ...)
Okay, just so I can add some actual useful information: I haven’t had much experience with a tapered vs. non-tapered dovetail saw, but I have two ryobas that are identical in every way except for the angle of the tooth line relative to the handle. It’s not really a tapered vs. non-tapered thing, but it’s definitely a more tapered vs. less tapered situation.

I find that if I’m switching between the two saws, I can feel a difference in the cut, but then I automatically adjust my body position to accommodate the difference. Whether one is “better” than the other depends on how I’ve positioned the board relative to my body and the workbench. Sometimes one saw is better, and sometimes the other one will be.

I would imagine the same thing would happen for the two different types of Lie-Nielsen saws. Of the two, I’d go for tapered, but that’s just because I think it looks cooler.

Hail St. Roy, Full of Grace, The Schwarz is with thee.
Blessed art thou among woodworkers, and blessed is the fruit of thy saw, dovetails.
Holy St. Roy, Master of Chisels, pray for us sharpeners now, and at the hour of planing.
Amen.
$300 is a lot of Money!
giant Cypress: Japanese tool blog
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#18
  Re: Re: Dovetail Saws by Wilbur Pan (Okay, just so I can ...)
Ok guy thanks this is the kind of info I was looking for. Allen no I had not see that article but now I have! Interesting.

RonL
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#19
  Re: Re: Dovetail Saws by RonL (Ok guy thanks this i...)
Just an FYI. Tapered really just refers to a canted plate. Shorter at the toe end. It is not tapered in the sense of a tapered hand saw. A canted plate had basically three rationals for using them.
A) Some use a canted plate and try to keep the spine level so there is a tendency to cut deeper on the back side of the dovetail/ tenon cut. They alter the visual reference line. There by preventing them from over cutting on the front side. I personally cant almost all my saws. But I also like the looks.



B) The canted plate also effectively increases the hang angle of the handle relative to the tooth line. Making the saw more aggressive given the same ppi, rake and fleam. So a 40* hang saw may actually be 42* or more. Depending on the amount of cant. This also will affect the amount of rake needed to optimize the saw cut. So then one may wonder why not just increase the hang of the saw handle?? I am sure we can all figure that one out.

C) There is a slight shift in balance of the saw as well depending on the thickness of the plate in the first place and length of the plate. A canted plate will decrease that toe weight to some extent. Although not much. To decrease the toe weight of a given saw more substantially you will need to "taper" both the spine as well as the plate. If memory serves me correctly, one of the original CE Jennings saws did this. I should also note the spine on that saw was tapered in both height and thickness as well. I don't think anyone does that on the reproductions, as doing so would be a bit time consuming, but I could be wrong on that. I did so on a few of my large tenon saws, but ultimately decided it was not a significant difference. Starting a saw with a higher toe weight is just a matter of technique. They certainly have been doing it for a couple hundred years. Either way. If you like the saw go for it. If not, the Lie Nielsen saws hold their value well so you could always sell it and buy one of their non canted saws.
Ok enough. I was on a roll.


BontzSawWorks.net
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#20
  Re: Dovetail Saws by RonL (I have cut dovetail ...)
I used LN tapered and LV non-tapered. Small advantage to tapered as you can check your cut on one side only. However, with experience and more muscle memory it diminishes.

I LIKE thin plate when working on thinner stock!

BTW - I am going to post practically new LN tapered saw for sale. Let me know if you might be interested.

Thanks,

BG
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