A bit more on getting the best from honing guides
#11
  Re: (...)
I've had the LN gauge a short while now. It was purchased to use with BU plane blades, which require a secondary microbevel. This cannot be done freehand, which would be my preference for honing nearly all other blades.




It is an excellent guide, and for myself I think it will be left in its standard form for BU plane blades only. It is easy to set up with a jig for blade projection. The narrow wheel, similar to the Eclipse, makes honing a camber easy.

This narrow wheel, however, is not the ideal design for narrow blades that require a square blade, such as narrow chisels, shoulder plane blades, and mortice chisels.

Generally, with the exception of mortice chisels, I hollow grind and freehand sharpen all the others mentioned. However, if you do wish to have a guide that works well on these blades, try the new side holding LV guide for narrow blades. With the wide roller it is rock solid.

LN do not recommend their mortice add-ons for mortice chisels other than their own make. I use RI chisels. I prefer a honing guide for this since I add a 35 degree secondary bevel to a 20 degree primary bevel. Actually the best honing guide for mortice chisels is the Sharp Skate, but I do not think that these are available (from Harrelson Stanley) any longer.




The LV guide is not intended for mortice chisels. They are considered too deep to be held securely by the guide jaws. The same can be said for the LN in standard disguise. Both work if you crank the jaws down, but this is not recommended.

There is a simple "modification" to the LV that will enable RI (or other English bolstered types) to be help securely: (1) add 240 grit sandpaper to the jaws (I used a sticky back) - this locks the vertical sides of the mortice chisels securely enough for quite vigorous honing, and (2) place the LV roller in the second position for the Blade Carrier and the second microbevel position. This will increase the depth between the blade carrier and the wheels to its maximum and fit the 1/4" RI mortice chisel with room to spare. Not enough for the 3/8", however.




Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at http://www.inthewoodshop.com
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#12
  Re: A bit more on getting the best from honing guides by Derek Cohen (I've had the LN gaug...)
Derek Cohen said:


I've had the LN gauge a short while now. It was purchased to use with BU plane blades, which require a secondary microbevel. This cannot be done freehand, which would be my preference for honing nearly all other blades.

Regards from Perth

Derek




Why?

I freehand sharpen all my blades and I don't own a sharpening guide.

They are razor sharp. And it's quick and easy to do without a honing guide.

LN makes a nice honing guide, for sure.

But a lot of new woodworkers read your writing, Derek, so when you say something can't be done they might believe you.

In this instance it CAN be done freehand.

Just a thought.
Peter

My "day job"
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#13
  Re: Re: A bit more on getting the best from honing guides by Peter Tremblay ([blockquote]Derek Co...)
Peter Tremblay said:


[blockquote]Derek Cohen said:


I've had the LN gauge a short while now. It was purchased to use with BU plane blades, which require a secondary microbevel. This cannot be done freehand, which would be my preference for honing nearly all other blades.

Regards from Perth

Derek




Why?

I freehand sharpen all my blades and I don't own a sharpening guide.

They are razor sharp. And it's quick and easy to do without a honing guide.

LN makes a nice honing guide, for sure.

But a lot of new woodworkers read your writing, Derek, so when you say something can't be done they might believe you.

In this instance it CAN be done freehand.

Just a thought.


[/blockquote]

Peter, should I have been more specific? By now I would imagine most understand what I am referring to ... the tone of your post indicates that you just want to have a go at the use of a honing guide.

Anyway, for clarity (although this is not the issue, is it?) ...

The most efficient way to create a camber on a BU plane blade is to start with a low (25 degree) primary bevel, and add the desired high cambered angle as a secondary bevel (e.g 50 degrees for a included angle of 62 degrees). This results in less steel to remove than trying to camber a 50 degree primary bevel.

Yes, I recall that you do not do this, but I would consider adding a camber on a high angle to be an inefficient method of honing.

To add this cambered secondary bevel, it only needs to be very tiny .. i.e. a micro secondary bevel. You simply cannot do this accurately and repeatedly freehand. It requires a honing guide.

Remember, bevel down blades get their cutting angle from the angle of the bed. However, bevel up blades get their cutting angle from the angle of the bed PLUS the angle of the bevel. I have seen notables such as Paul Sellers stating that he is honing at 30 degrees when it is evident that he is closer to 45 degrees. It is difficult to gauge an angle such as used in this instance by eye. It is hard enough for experienced woodworkers. It would be very difficult for those less so. I know which method I find easier.

Regards from Perth

Derek

p.s. To add .. Peter you manage to pick on the one area that was not the point of this post. The post was about which honing guide was better in certain situations. Mmm .. interesting.
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at http://www.inthewoodshop.com
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#14
  Re: Re: A bit more on getting the best from honing guides by Derek Cohen ([blockquote]Peter Tr...)
Derek Cohen said:



Peter, should I have been more specific? By now I would imagine most understand what I am referring to ... the tone of your post indicates that you just want to have a go at the use of a honing guide.

Anyway, for clarity (although this is not the issue, is it?) ...

Mmm .. interesting.




I'm trying to pay you the compliment that a lot of people read what you write about woodworking and they rely on your information to improve their skills. I know that I read everything that you wrote when I first got started.

So to my way of thinking, yes, the greater specificity is important and I'm not sure everyone does understand what you are referring to.

Maybe I'm wrong.

As far as a tone or some unspoken issue is concerned I'm at a loss. My personal statement was intended as a compliment not anything else.

I've got no interest in "having a go" about anything.
Peter

My "day job"
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#15
  Re: Re: A bit more on getting the best from honing guides by Peter Tremblay ([blockquote]Derek Co...)
The OP is displaying about $350 worth of honing jigs (more, depending on how many accassessory jaws you buy from LN) which when you think about it, is a whole lot of money, and insisting that micro bevels cannot be established freehand. Simple fact is it can. Regularly done.

However, if you wish to reduce honing to a precise science, as opposed to a practical means to an end, then yes, precise and repeatable angles will require a jig, perhaps all of those so displayed. I tend to prefer the practical, and considerably less costly approach. I guess you can put me in the Paul Sellers camp on this issue.

To each his own. A modified $15 Eclipse knockoff (Deneb from LN has a video online showing how to tune it up) in my view is all you need, although the original Veritas Sharpening System, about $50, is very good as well. Sharpening is a skill, and once learned will pay dividends throughout your woodworking life.
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Non impediti ratione cogitationis
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#16
  Re: A bit more on getting the best from honing guides by Derek Cohen (I've had the LN gaug...)
Derek,

Thanks for the valuable information. I now have a better understanding of how I can properly hone BU blades with a guide and I feel more comfortable with the pros and cons of the LN device.

Thanks again,

Ray- a relatively new guy.
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#17
  Re: Re: A bit more on getting the best from honing guides by Admiral (The OP is displaying...)
Admiral said:


The OP is displaying about $350 worth of honing jigs (more, depending on how many accassessory jaws you buy from LN) which when you think about it, is a whole lot of money, and insisting that micro bevels cannot be established freehand. Simple fact is it can. Regularly done.

However, if you wish to reduce honing to a precise science, as opposed to a practical means to an end, then yes, precise and repeatable angles will require a jig, perhaps all of those so displayed. I tend to prefer the practical, and considerably less costly approach. I guess you can put me in the Paul Sellers camp on this issue.

To each his own. A modified $15 Eclipse knockoff (Deneb from LN has a video online showing how to tune it up) in my view is all you need, although the original Veritas Sharpening System, about $50, is very good as well. Sharpening is a skill, and once learned will pay dividends throughout your woodworking life.




Yes Admiral, there are guides here worth more than an Eclipse. I suspect that many own one or more, since they have been hotly discussed over time.

You and Peter appear to miss the point of my post, but this is the second time in a row that you have done so in regard to my posts, and replied with a criticism. I am not sure what to make of this.

This post is about information giving, not about attempting to extoll and sell the advantages of a selected guide, or even debate the virtues of freehand vs honing guides, or vice versa. As it happens, I freehand almost all my blades, and have done so for many years. However, there is a place for honing guides. It is helpful to recognise pros and cons in all situations and not be rigid about methods or outlook.

I had responded to a post on another forum about the LN guide. It occurred to me that members if this forum might also benefit from this information, and so I posted it here as well. It seems that I may have been mistaken so far, since two of three responses completely missed the point. The point is that each of these honing guides does something great, but none are a complete answer.

As for "precision" in sharpening, this shows that you either know very little about setting up a BU plane for smoothing, or you are just trying to be a curmudgeon. Yes, it is possible to freehand a microbevel, but it is not recommended for a BU plane blade. Small degrees here change the planing characteristics of the plane. And, if you wish to emulate Paul Sellers, be aware that he does not go above 30 or so degrees, which would be very unfriendly when planing face grain. No wonder he says these planes leave a rough surface!



Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at http://www.inthewoodshop.com
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#18
  Re: Re: A bit more on getting the best from honing guides by Derek Cohen ([blockquote]Admiral ...)
"Yes, it is possible to freehand a microbevel, but it is not recommended for a BU plane blade. Small degrees here change the planing characteristics of the plane. "

Points missed or not, Derek, I do not know in practice how that small degrees of difference would affect our work. I have sharpened my blades with jigs as well as freehand and I detected zero difference in all my work, whether planing or against the grain work.

I support the use of jigs as long as it helps any woodworker regardless of their experience and I don't feel that the other two respondents are saying we shouldn't use honing jigs.

Simon
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#19
  Re: Re: A bit more on getting the best from honing guides by Handplanesandmore ("Yes, it is possible...)
I have sharpened my blades with jigs as well as freehand and I detected zero difference in all my work, whether planing or against the grain work.

What wood are you describing? Straight-grained woods will not be a test of anything at all. The reason for a high cutting angle on a BU plane is when you move to interlocked or reversing grain. The more of one and the higher the other. I work with complex grains - demonstrated here time and again - and can categorically state that a difference is present between 45- and 50 degrees on some woods, and definitely 50- and 60 degrees on others.

That is about all from me on this thread - the only reason I have done so is that a few hundred other have read this thread and may otherwise end up misinformed. I am not inclined to argue these irrelevant points any longer.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at http://www.inthewoodshop.com
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#20
  Re: Re: A bit more on getting the best from honing guides by Handplanesandmore ("Yes, it is possible...)
Handplanesandmore said:



I support the use of jigs as long as it helps any woodworker regardless of their experience and I don't feel that the other two respondents are saying we shouldn't use honing jigs.

Simon




I agree here Simon. If a guy starts woodworking at retirement age, having sharpened nothing more than pencils, a honing guide could be helpful. Or for a guy who has physical or neurological problems. For a beginner who has no access to a mentor, purchasing a guide and following a cookbook recipe for sharpening might be the easiest way to become familiar with an adequate edge. However the suggestion that a guide is necessary or even desirable for efficient high level work is preposterous.
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