Talk to me about molding heads on spindle shapers

[packerguy®]

Ive seen a few videos about the molding heads for spindle shapers, as well as the short byrd heads that are for flush trimming using a rub bearing.

I have been tossing around the idea of getting a shaper for the better part of a year, but I just cant pull the trigger just doing flat profile cuts.

I really want to make an urn with curved side profiles like this for example



but with that footprint, I need it to be a multi use tool. I do a TON of flush trimming so the byrd head would be sweet, and if the molding heads work well, there is an abundance of knives available so I could do some really cool stuff I think. But for the foot print and more than a grand tied up in a flush trim cutter isn't practical if I cant do more.

How do people set them up for safe use? I would imagine a feeder is an obvious use, but anyone else have another set up?

[Jeremy s]

To run moldings like that you need a Williams & Hussey style molder.

You can do it on a shaper but it is not ideal because you need to build out the outfeed fence to support the profile.

I bought my W&H last year and i also have 7 shapers so i have my needs covered. I have a head for my shapers that holds W&H knives if i ever have a special need.

[JGrout]

I agree with Jeremy about the use of a W&H style molder for that cut.

Shapers have a place and you can do that cut on one but it is way harder to accomplish on a shaper than a molder especially if the rest of the time you use it for flush trim work If you were building cabinets and needed doors or doing lots of millwork trims other than what you are presently doing then it would be worth looking into.

There is another alternative (using a molding style head on a TS) and if you are just looking for a few one off boxes it might be an alternative providing you were just looking for tooling.

This was matched using LRH molding plugs in a TS head


cut one setup


cut one


On the saw


partly done




This is just prior to finishing the cuts


the last cut was accomplished with a cove router bit


JME

Joe

[TGW]

In my oppinion a spindle moulder (European term for shaper) is very suitable for that type of work.

In Europe we generally tend to use spindle moulders as multi function machines while Americans tend to use a number of different machines for the same work. For instance the mentioned W&H style of moulder is fairly rare around here. Hence European spindle moulders tend to be a lot more versatile than American ones.

You can easily make that kind of mouldings. A modern (post 1920-ies) European style fence has it's two halves independently adjustable in and out. Hence you just adjust the outfeed fence to compensate for the removed amount of materials.
The machine can be fitted with a feedwork to efficiently and steadly feed long lenghts of molding through. The feedwork makes molding a lot more consistent than hand feeding.

You can use a spindle moulder as a tennoner. Most new European machines have a sliding table in front of the spindle. Elderly machines could be ordered with a cast iron tennoning sled which moved along a runner thast could be bolted on top of the table. Such tennoning sleds can still be bought new and fitted to elderly machines. When not in use the runner in unbolted (two bolts) and the sled removed. Such a tennoning setup can also be used for making box joints and sash corner joints.

When cutting long tennons using the tennoning sled you need large diametre tooling. A spindle top support is used to minimize vibration and make everything safer when running such tooling.
For very long tennons you can install a cirkular saw blade or two on the spindle. Between appropriate flanges of cause. Then make the shoulder cuts on your table saw.

Most elderly spindle moulders could be fitted with a collet for router bits. Because of the low RPM that wasn't a very good idea so few do it theese days.

A spindle moulder is excellent for making fielded panels.

Most modern and some elderly spindle moulders have a tilting spindle. This allows you to make a wide variety of mouldings and chamfers with fewer knives and cutterblocks.

Most modern (post second world war) spindle moulders have at least two speeds. Tooling of various diametres and materials require different speeds. In my oppinion two speeds is an absolute minimum. 3 or 4 is better.



Personally I don't own a router nor a router table. The spindle moulder is much more efficient for my needs.
Mine is part of an old super solid all cast iron combination machine. The motor that powers the spindle is 3hp which I consider as the absolute minimum motor size.
As soon as I can afford a bigger workshop my Jonsered FM-C with 4kW (over 5 hp) motor will move in.
A Bäuerle or Kölle with tilting spindle would be even better.....if I could afford one.

[JGrout]

I do not think anyone really said a spindle molder would not work we just steered him toward a better or at the very least different solution

I own both types for a good reason: I have made vertical cut profiles on a spindle molder and find the setups are not worth the effort that has to be put forth for a short run

PG is building urns (maybe 5 feet of stock each and that is stretching it) not supplying profiled mill stock in the thousands of feet per run.

And the secondary use as a flush trimmer is not exactly a going to make the spindle molder versatile enough to justify the footprint in a small shop

[jasfrank]

And you're saying a WH is somehow easier to set up than a shaper? lmao @ u. The sort of cut PG is showing is pretty easy with a shaper. As it would be with a WH. But the setup on a WH isn't any easier. And yes, I've owned and used both.

[handi]

Jeremy s said:

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To run moldings like that you need a Williams & Hussey style molder.

You can do it on a shaper but it is not ideal because you need to build out the outfeed fence to support the profile.

I bought my W&H last year and i also have 7 shapers so i have my needs covered. I have a head for my shapers that holds W&H knives if i ever have a special need.

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I have used shapers, W&H molders and Woodmasters. You do NOT need to build out the outfeed fence for molding profiles. I have made literally miles of handrails on shapers.

I do like to set the outfeed fence 1/32" shallower than the infeed to "joint" the handrail. The trick is to set the outfeed so that it s level with the widest part of the molding.

The other thing is that I never use a shaper without a power feeder.

Ralph

[Jeremy s]

handi said:

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[blockquote]Jeremy s said:

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To run moldings like that you need a Williams & Hussey style molder.

You can do it on a shaper but it is not ideal because you need to build out the outfeed fence to support the profile.

I bought my W&H last year and i also have 7 shapers so i have my needs covered. I have a head for my shapers that holds W&H knives if i ever have a special need.

---

I have used shapers, W&H molders and Woodmasters. You do NOT need to build out the outfeed fence for molding profiles. I have made literally miles of handrails on shapers.

I do like to set the outfeed fence 1/32" shallower than the infeed to "joint" the handrail. The trick is to set the outfeed so that it s level with the widest part of the molding.

The other thing is that I never use a shaper without a power feeder.

Ralph

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[/blockquote]

Depends on the profile The ops pic looks like it is offset so all but one part of the molding would be touching the fence. Either way when you have part of a profile unsuported on a vertical shaper molding run, you will not get as smooth of a cut.

[handi]

Not to disagree, but that is a VERY common handrail profile, and as I said, I have run many thousands of feet or this profile and others. The power feeder holds from top down, and the wide top of the profile follows the fence perfectly well.

Ralph

[JGrout]

considering everything I suppose I am just a hack with a tool budget,



but just to be fair 10 minutes tops in a W&H 3 times that for a shaper setup that is safe and effective all for about 4-5 feet of profiled stock

while you are correct that is a handrail profile it is just an example of the profile. the application for an urn is not going to be even close to the same setup IOW looking at a picture and applying the effort to do something that is thinner than 2 1/2" wide is not the same.

Most urns are much wider and surprisingly hollow on the inside which means one is looking at 3/4" stock
I can only think of one way to set up so the off feed does not need a backer of some sort.. and doesn't chatter the stock to the point it takes more to clean it up than to make it

And that is a seriously complicated setup and feed


The issue is IMO more about proper application and ease of set up

And the shaper is not my go to in this case

I would rather spend the time making profiles on the TS; I did the one I showed in 30 minutes