So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother...
#31
  Re: RE: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by overland (Again, for Derek: Yo...)
(11-02-2016, 02:17 PM)overland Wrote: Again, for Derek: You say you have high angle smoothers with blades set at 60-62 degrees, but also at least one smoother--your LN 4 1/2 --set at regular pitch. And if the chipbreaker is set close, you get smoother results with this one than using a higher angle blade. So under what conditions do you use the high-angle smoothers? If you get smoother results with standard pitch-- 45 degrees--and a close-set chip breaker, why use a high angle smoother at all?

I was using high angle planes for nearly 2 decades before learning about the chipbreaker. Either made them or used HNT Gordon woodies. Over a period of 10 years I also used BU planes with high cutting angles. 

Of these two, I preferred using the BU planes as their low centre of effort makes them easier to push. However, the downside for me is that freehand sharpening is not practical with BU planes, where the blade uses a micro secondary bevel (to achieve a high and cambered edge). This is not an issue with BD planes, where I use a hollow grind and hone on that.

The advantage of the chipbreakered plane is that sharpening the blades do not require a honing guide (which is needed on a BU plane). That was the initial plus. Then it became apparent that the chipbreaker could control tearout even better than a high cutting angle. Some of the wood I use really benefits from this.

Note that this is my experience using hard and interlocked Australian wood. USA timbers are generally straight grained, by comparison. Further, some of these issues are a non-starter for those that sharpen everything with a honing guide.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at http://www.inthewoodshop.com
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#32
  Re: RE: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Derek Cohen ([quote='overland' pi...)
Learning something new here.  Never heard of the 50 deg angle on the chipbreaker.  Can somebody comment or link on the science behind this.  thanks.
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#33
  Re: RE: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by deeno (Learning something n...)
I tried this out on a some figured walnut--crotch figured. It worked. Got to have a very sharp blade, too.
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#34
  Re: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (I thought I'd look f...)
(11-07-2016, 02:50 PM)deeno Wrote: Learning something new here.  Never heard of the 50 deg angle on the chipbreaker.  Can somebody comment or link on the science behind this.  thanks.

A higher angle at the leading edge of the chipbreaker aids in directing the shaving upward. The original angle of 25 degrees (found on the LV, LN and Clifton) is too low to deflect the shaving enough. Something between 45 - 50 degrees (Kato mentioned 80 degrees) is needed. When the shaving is deflected sufficiently, this will direct force downward and prevent the shaving (or chip) from splitting ahead of itself. Tearout is more likely when shavings are permitted to split further ahead of themselves. All this is undone when the chipbreaker is not close enough to the back of the blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at http://www.inthewoodshop.com
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#35
  Re: RE: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Derek Cohen ([quote='deeno' pid='...)
As far as I got Kato's results right, he is telling that a 50° bevelled cap iron works good with a shallow set of 0.1 mm from the edge. Since he did these attempts with a 40° bedded iron, the bevel of the chipbreaker of a 45° bedded plane should be 45° to get the same result.

His attempts with a 80° bevelled cap iron generally had better results even if the chipbreaker is set with some more distance to the edge. 0.2 or even 0.3 mm are working fine. So a 75° bevelled chipbraker on a Bailey plane, that is set with the distance of 0.2 mm should be a good set up.

Klaus
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#36
  Re: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (I thought I'd look f...)
Klaus: you bring up a good point, and one that may differ from Derek's, if I am understanding this correctly. I am at a 50° bevel on the CB
and .33 mm (.013") on the setback. I did not understand, until your post, that the setback distance is a function of the bevel angle, i.e., the closer
you get to the edge with the CB the lower the CB bevel can be. So where is the sweet spot here and has anyone gone to the trouble of creating a table
that makes this all clear(er)? Phil
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#37
  Re: RE: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (Klaus: you bring up ...)
The optimum setting for a cap iron depends on the timber involved. We cannot set rules or make tables based on the results of one researcher using one species of Japanese wood. Anybody who would suggest something like this lacks experience. A fair amount of judgement is needed to do a good job with a double iron plane.

You have to know your wood. You can't sit in another hemisphere and make pronouncements about somebody else's timber.
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#38
  Re: RE: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by wmickley (The optimum setting ...)
wmickley: No doubt various species behave differently. However, I welcome anyone willing to share their experience and wisdom, no
matter the time zone, the hemisphere, or the planet for that matter (might have stretched it a little there, but you get my point).
I happen to be primarily interested in black cherry: lets localize it to PA, and assume curly figure. While I wait for Derek and Klaus
to share more info on this: what's your best estimate of chipbreaker setback distance and angle? Phil
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#39
  Re: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (I thought I'd look f...)
(11-08-2016, 12:48 PM)wmickley Wrote: The optimum setting for a cap iron depends on the timber involved. We cannot set rules or make tables based on the results of one researcher using one species of Japanese wood. Anybody who would suggest something like this lacks experience. A fair amount of judgement is needed to do a good job with a double iron plane.

You have to know your wood. You can't sit in another hemisphere and make pronouncements about somebody else's timber.

Hello Warren, good to see you in here again.. I installed a "planing post" on my bench a coupla years ago like you said then.  It has taught me many things, some not so pleasant, but necessary to know....

Phillip:  Our difficult woods here in Texas are mesquite and Osage orange.  Both can be hard as a rock, but a shaving comes off of each very differently.  What Warren is saying is that you have to take the planes you have and try the different settings on each and see which is the best for you.  You can take our opinions here to get you close, but then you have to fiddle with the different setups to see which is best on your wood.  Watching the Kato video is very interesting and I am glad Wilbur brought it to us.... but he will be the first to say that it's usefulness is mainly on those subjects that it focused on.  In those areas, it is very detailed and informative...
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#40
  Re: RE: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (wmickley: No doubt v...)
I live in Pennsylvania. I have been planing Pennsylvania curly cherry (Prunus serotina) with a double iron plane for 43 years. I use a rounded cap iron which is the best method. Not surprisingly it is the historic method. The "improved chipbreakers", with their flat bevels were designed by people who had no idea how to use a double iron plane. I don't think a micro bevel at any angle will yield the results of a nicely rounded bevel. 

I have never measured a cap iron setting, but I will say that the setting depends on the grain orientation, degree of figure, the quality of the wood and the shaving thickness. It is helpful to do stock preparation by hand to get a feel for the timber along the way. If there is tearout, the cap iron is ineffective: too flat, too far away or both.
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