So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother...
#41
  Re: RE: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by wmickley (I live in Pennsylvan...)
(11-08-2016, 03:51 PM)wmickley Wrote: I live in Pennsylvania. I have been planing Pennsylvania curly cherry (Prunus serotina) with a double iron plane for 43 years. I use a rounded cap iron which is the best method. Not surprisingly it is the historic method. The "improved chipbreakers", with their flat bevels were designed by people who had no idea how to use a double iron plane. I don't think a micro bevel at any angle will yield the results of a nicely rounded bevel. 

I have never measured a cap iron setting, but I will say that the setting depends on the grain orientation, degree of figure, the quality of the wood and the shaving thickness. It is helpful to do stock preparation by hand to get a feel for the timber along the way. If there is tearout, the cap iron is ineffective: too flat, too far away or both.

Couldn't have put it better.  +1

Woodworking is not a science, but an art.  Attempts to make it otherwise can gain some traction, but there is simply too much variability in wood (and within individual species as well) to make firm conclusions of what is the best approach.
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Non impediti ratione cogitationis
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#42
  Re: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (I thought I'd look f...)
doesn't a rounded cap iron have a fairly big angle right at the blade?  I think the lesson here is that it doesn't really matter how you hold the wood together in front of the blade as long as you do it somehow
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#43
  Re: RE: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by KlausK. (As far as I got Kato...)
(11-08-2016, 07:33 AM)KlausK. Wrote: As far as I got Kato's results right, he is telling that a 50° bevelled cap iron works good with a shallow set of 0.1 mm from the edge. Since he did these attempts with a 40° bedded iron, the bevel of the chipbreaker of a 45° bedded plane should be 45° to get the same result.

His attempts with a 80° bevelled cap iron generally had better results even if the chipbreaker is set with some more distance to the edge. 0.2 or even 0.3 mm are working fine. So a 75° bevelled chipbraker on a Bailey plane, that is set with the distance of 0.2 mm should be a good set up.

Klaus

A couple thoughts on this. The K/K results, valuable as they are, were not done with a handplane, and don't transfer exactly. It is helpful to experiment with different bevels (on the CB) and different setbacks, and judge the results accordingly. Here are a few things I and many others have observed:
  • Steep bevels on the CB, in the 60°-80° range, allow the CB to stop tearout at a greater setback distance, exactly as Klaus suggests. However, there is a price. First, the window in which the CB functions optimally seems to shrink. That is, the distance between "not much effect" and "too much effect"  is very small. This makes setting to the optimum distance trickier. Second, the plane becomes harder to push. Third, one is more likely to get "accordion" or "crinkly bacon" shavings which can cause clogging and can also affect surface quality.
  • A shallower bevel, around 50°, generally seems to work better. In most situations, a setback of around .010" with the 50° bevel will produce nice straight shavings that eject very cleanly, and tearout-free surfaces. This setting may not work in all situations, but as Warren says, "if there is tearout, move the cap iron." It's as simple as that.
  • Experience suggests that the relationship of bed angle to CB bevel angle is not a simple matter of adding the two to get a resultant angle. The bed angle seems to have more effect than the CB angle. For example, if we compare a 40° bed + 50° CB to a 50° bed + 40° CB, both have a resultant angle of 90°, but the CB will need to be set closer in the first scenario to obtain the same result. That doesn't mean the second scenario is better, just that it might be a little easier to use.
  • In the end, it's probably best to go with the what numerous experienced people have been saying, ever since Dave Weaver's article "setting a cap iron" first appeared on Wood Central. Put an approximately 50° microbevel on the CB and set it around .010" from the cutting edge. If there is tearout, move the CB closer. If the plane becomes too hard to push, or the shaving bunch up too much, move the CB away. This isn't rocket science and it's not hard.
voigtplanes.com
blackdogswoodshop.blogspot.com
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#44
  Re: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (I thought I'd look f...)
Steve: Beautiful: that's what I was after: 50° and .010 setback. I can work with that. No, its not rocket science, nor is it as I often say
( as a nuclear physicist) nuclear physics!", but baking a cake isn' t hard either, unless you don't know how to bake a cake. Thanks
for your input: much appreciated! (also thanks Klaus and Derek and eveyone else that contributed) Excellent. Phil
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#45
  Re: RE: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (Steve: Beautiful: t...)
Everything, except possibly quantum mechanics, is simple once you know how to do it; getting there is often complicated.

I tend to say, "It's not rocket surgery."

Quantum mechanics, now...
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#46
  Re: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (I thought I'd look f...)
Phil and Bill, you're right. It's easy once you're on the other the side of the learning curve, but not so much before you get there.
voigtplanes.com
blackdogswoodshop.blogspot.com
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#47
  Re: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (I thought I'd look f...)
(11-13-2016, 06:59 PM)Bill_Houghton Wrote: Everything, except possibly quantum mechanics, is simple once you know how to do it; getting there is often complicated.

I think Quantum Mechanics is reasonably simple once you have the mathematical background for it, or at least that's what I tell myself.  I'm close on that regard.  I have always wanted to understand it, I'll have to get my son to teach it to me once he learns it.  He's a Physics/Math major.
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#48
  Re: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (I thought I'd look f...)
(11-14-2016, 07:35 PM)EricU Wrote: I think Quantum Mechanics is reasonably simple...

You're probably right.  Or maybe not.
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#49
  Re: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (I thought I'd look f...)
I'll let you know. I find that everything is simple after I've learned it the third time.
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#50
  Re: So, Before I Run Out and Invest in an Overstuffed Smoother... by Philip1231 (I thought I'd look f...)
(11-13-2016, 05:05 PM)Philip1231 Wrote: Steve:  Beautiful: that's what I was after: 50° and .010 setback. I can work with that.  No, its not rocket science, nor is it as I often say
( as a nuclear physicist) nuclear physics!", but baking a cake isn' t hard either, unless you don't know how to bake a cake.  Thanks
for your input: much appreciated! (also thanks Klaus and Derek and eveyone else that contributed) Excellent. Phil

Considering how many doctors, lawyers, engineers, plane makers and even woodworkers have had a hard time figuring out how to use the double iron over the years, I would say it is complicated. Even on this page some feel the need to reduce the practice to some cookbook instructions, negating the art. A cap iron that is too close can give a surface that is as bad as a high angle plane or worse.

A driver's education teacher once told me some parents teach their children to line up some hood feature with the center line or shoulder of the road. Helpful for a very short time.
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