aniline dye question

[Ben Conner]

Hi,

I'm making a custom stain for soft maple treads on a stairway.  I decided to try aniline dyes in alcohol to keep from drowning out the grain pattern.

On one of the test pieces, I'm seeing some interesting absorption patterns.  Is this to be expected?  I was hoping for a more consistent stain pattern.

Thanks!

--Ben

[Roly]

Hi,

I'm making a custom stain for soft maple treads on a stairway.  I decided to try aniline dyes in alcohol to keep from drowning out the grain pattern.

On one of the test pieces, I'm seeing some interesting absorption patterns.  Is this to be expected?  I was hoping for a more consistent stain pattern.

Thanks!

--Ben

Did you try mixing with water and apply with a wet sponge.   Always try on a sample like you did, never on the project.   Roly
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[Ben Conner]

Did you try mixing with water and apply with a wet sponge.   Always try on a sample like you did, never on the project.   Some aniline dyes require some water to get good color.   You are talking powered dyes I assume. Roly
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Sorry, a little detail might help.
I used TransTint dyes that work with denatured alcohol.  This was 1 drop per about 25 ml.  Applied with a foam brush. 
Yes, I'm not about to try this on the real project until I know what to expect.

Thanks!

--Ben

[jteneyck]

Sorry, a little detail might help.
I used TransTint dyes that work with denatured alcohol.  This was 1 drop per about 25 ml.  Applied with a foam brush. 
Yes, I'm not about to try this on the real project until I know what to expect.

Thanks!

--Ben

Maple is notorious for blotching.  Your photo doesn't really suggest that, as blotching is usually seen as dark areas, not light, but I'm not sure how else to explain it unless you got some glue, oil, or finish on the piece of wood and didn't sand it all off.  I almost always spray dyes these days as it just about eliminates blotching, but if you can't spray then you are stuck with figuring it out by hand. 
1 drop in 25 ml is maybe 0.2% concentration and that's really low, you won't get much color with that.  I think Homestead recommends starting at 1%, which would be around 5 drops, assuming 20 drops/ml.  I usually start around 0.5%.  
Anyway, I would take another piece of wood and repeat the process.  If that comes out uniform I'd say something was strange with piece number 1, but if the same thing happens then you need to look at an alternate process.  One thing I would try is using water instead of DNA, or 50/50 water/DNA.  I know water causes grain raising, but it often gives better results.  You can greatly reduce the grain raising, if that turns out to be a problem, by first sanding to 320 grit and pre-raising the grain before applying the dye. 

John

[Ben Conner]

I had tried 5 drops but it was too dark; hid the grain pattern.  I'll try using a mix of water/DNA and see how that goes. 

Since I haven't worked with aniline dyes before, I did a bunch of tests with 25ml DNA and 1 drop, 2 drops, etc. and then let my wife pick.  That way I don't get into trouble.

Will post the results.

Thanks, John!

--Ben

[Roly]

I had tried 5 drops but it was too dark; hid the grain pattern.  I'll try using a mix of water/DNA and see how that goes. 

Since I haven't worked with aniline dyes before, I did a bunch of tests with 25ml DNA and 1 drop, 2 drops, etc. and then let my wife pick.  That way I don't get into trouble.

Will post the results.

Thanks, John!

--Ben

Then hide the samples so she cannot compare the final results .    Unless it is a perfect match.    Roly

[jteneyck]

I had tried 5 drops but it was too dark; hid the grain pattern.  I'll try using a mix of water/DNA and see how that goes. 

Since I haven't worked with aniline dyes before, I did a bunch of tests with 25ml DNA and 1 drop, 2 drops, etc. and then let my wife pick.  That way I don't get into trouble.

Will post the results.

Thanks, John!

--Ben

That's curious.  I've never heard anyone say dye hid the grain.  Are you basing that conclusion after looking at it only after the dye has dried?  That's a common mistake.  You need to put a topcoat on it see how it will really look.  Dyes look sort of muted, even muddy, after they have dried, but it pops to life once you apply the finish coats and accentuates the grain, not hide it.   

Also, be aware that Transtint is soluble in both alcohol and water, and a few other solvents, so the first thing you put over the dye cannot be water or alcohol based unless sprayed on.  Oil based finish of any kind is fine to apply any way you like, but if you want to use shellac or WB products you must spray the first coat.  If you try to brush or wipe those products on they will redissolve some of the dye and make a muddy mess.
 
John

[Ben Conner]

That's curious.  I've never heard anyone say dye hid the grain.  Are you basing that conclusion after looking at it only after the dye has dried?  That's a common mistake.  You need to put a topcoat on it see how it will really look.  Dyes look sort of muted, even muddy, after they have dried, but it pops to life once you apply the finish coats and accentuates the grain, not hide it.   

Also, be aware that Transtint is soluble in both alcohol and water, and a few other solvents, so the first thing you put over the dye cannot be water or alcohol based unless sprayed on.  Oil based finish of any kind is fine to apply any way you like, but if you want to use shellac or WB products you must spray the first coat.  If you try to brush or wipe those products on they will redissolve some of the dye and make a muddy mess.
 
John

The tinting was pretty uneven after it dried; I took off the fuzz with 400 grit sandpaper and while smoother, the blotching was still there.  Yes, I had just been looking at the stain after it dried.  My bad!

I added 2 more drops to my test mixture and applied it again.  Darker still (no surprise there).  Will wait for this to dry and apply a topcoat.

This will go on soft maple stairs to the basement.  Not a lot of traffic but enough.  What would you recommend for a clear topcoat?

--Ben

[jteneyck]

The tinting was pretty uneven after it dried; I took off the fuzz with 400 grit sandpaper and while smoother, the blotching was still there.  Yes, I had just been looking at the stain after it dried.  My bad!

I added 2 more drops to my test mixture and applied it again.  Darker still (no surprise there).  Will wait for this to dry and apply a topcoat.

This will go on soft maple stairs to the basement.  Not a lot of traffic but enough.  What would you recommend for a clear topcoat?

--Ben

Any floor rated oil based varnish should work fine.   Varathane Premium Floor Finish would be a good choice.

John

[Roly]

You might try adding the transtint to the finish to make a toner.   I have a feeling this is more what you are looking for.   Roly