furnace / ac replacement ?

[appletonrc]

What about a heat pump and go geothermal? They were talking about it on NPR one day. They can drill holes straight down so you don't have to tear up the yard. It seemed like payback was relatively quick. I always assumed you needed to have a large yard torn up with coils of tubes. I haven't looked much past the NPR show so I don't really know what the cost difference is for the install.

[oscarMadison]

What about a heat pump and go geothermal?  They were talking about it on NPR one day.  They can drill holes straight down so you don't have to tear up the yard.  It seemed like payback was relatively quick.  I always assumed you needed to have a large yard torn up with coils of tubes.  I haven't looked much past the NPR show so I don't really know what the cost difference is for the install.

not sure what kind of expertise we would have out here with geothermal. As to heat pump, don't they usually have a back up?

[fredhargis]

not sure what kind of expertise we would have out here with geothermal.  As to heat pump, don't they usually have a back up?

Having just put that into our house, let me share our experience. This was our second ground source heat pump and we went vertical to avoid the yard destruction. That part wasn't all it's cracked up to be. The driller (we have 7 wells, each over 100' deep) absolutely destroyed a piece of yard that was probably 30' wide and 60' feet long. We live in the country and have plenty of room...but in an urban setting this might be a little unmanageable. The ground source heat pumps (I really don't like the "geothermal" moniker) do require a back up, for us it's a gas (LP) furnace. But to be honest, the heat pumps do a wonderful job and actually deliver very warm air. The back up is needed for those super cold days, and if the well field (or trench, for the horizontal loops) ever gets too cold to heat the house. There is also a "pump and dump" system (open loop) that uses well water and then dumps it. It might be worth looking into, but for us the loop adds quite a bit to the bill. Our horizontal loop (6 years ago, different house) was maybe $6K to the system cost, the vertical loop added a little over $12K. There is another technology around here called "waterless" or direct exchange. This one puts copper pipes into the ground and the refrigerant is pumped right through them. It actually wasn't much higher than what I bought, but there are only a couple of companies that make the equipment and even fewer that install it. The best thing about these systems is the advertise only a 3' wide excavation to install the pipes.

[rudedan60]

I looked into the ground source geothermal a few years ago.  The option I liked was using  a hydraulic  pipe pusher.  We wanted to save the trees.  We didn't build it.  The option I was looking at to do the alternate heat, was a back up generator.  This was because we had Natural gas service. Just some thoughts. Dan

[BrokenOlMarine]

Shop around, get advice from someone who actually knows something about the product you want to buy, not just your buddy who bought a similar system last season. (The guys here that work in the fields are a great start.) Miss t and I got burned several years ago on our new HVAC system.

It was summer in VA and if you've never endured one, think about standing eyeball deep in a hot tub. Hot and humid. Our central air died in August, the hottest August in ten years. 101 degrees one day that week. We had just put a new roof on the previous fall so extra money was tight. We got three or four estimates... and were thinking the same thing. They will have to tear out a lot of duct work and disrupt our lives for a couple days anyway, should we replace the twenty year old furnace?

The four companies all said the same thing. You don't have to, it could go another ten years. But you would save hundreds in labor by combining the jobs, and you will eventually have to replace the furnace. We narrowed the choices to two. One was a lower bid, using existing ductwork, and replacing the ac unit with a larger, but more energy efficient unit, and installing an OEM furnace. The second estimate was significantly higher. Forty percent rings a bell. However, he was going to install a paired high end ac unit and furnace, larger ductwork with smooth curving turns rather than ninety degree connections, and higher quality seals and shocked installation. At the time, budgetwise, we had to go with the first choice, as we wanted to pay cash.

The work was done... and when the unit was turned on, the fan sounded like a 747 turbine winding up. At least twice as loud as the same OEM unit they removed. "Well, they keep the cost down by using fans with cheap ... read that low number of bearings... systems. We can upgrade to a better fan, but for this model, ah... installed... you'd be talkin $300 easy man." The system works fine, but we watch tv with remote in hand, raising and lowering the volume as the heat/ac kicks off and on. Sheesh.... five years of this. Should have paid for the upgrades... were are here on the farm til we croak.

[daddo]

Shop around, get advice from someone who actually knows something about the product you want to buy, not just your buddy who bought a similar system last season. (The guys here that work in the fields are a great start.)  Miss t and I got burned several years ago on our new HVAC system.

It was summer in VA and if you've never endured one, think about standing eyeball deep in a hot tub. Hot and humid.  Our central air died in August, the hottest August in ten years. 101 degrees one day that week.  We had just put a new roof on the previous fall so extra money was tight.  We got three or four estimates... and were thinking the same thing.  They will have to tear out a lot of duct work and disrupt our lives for a couple days anyway, should we replace the twenty year old furnace?

The four companies all said the same thing.  You don't have to, it could go another ten years.  But you would save hundreds in labor by combining the jobs, and you will eventually have to replace the furnace.  We narrowed the choices to two.  One was a lower bid, using existing ductwork, and replacing the ac unit with a larger, but more energy efficient unit, and installing an OEM furnace.  The second estimate was significantly higher. Forty percent rings a bell. However, he was going to install a paired high end ac unit and furnace, larger ductwork with smooth curving turns rather than ninety degree connections, and higher quality seals and shocked installation.  At the time, budgetwise, we had to go with the first choice, as we wanted to pay cash.

The work was done... and when the unit was turned on, the fan sounded like a 747 turbine winding up. At least twice as loud as the same OEM unit they removed.  "Well, they keep the cost down by using fans with cheap ... read that low number of bearings... systems.  We can upgrade to a better fan, but for this model, ah... installed... you'd be talkin $300 easy man."  The system works fine, but we watch tv with remote in hand, raising and lowering the volume as the heat/ac kicks off and on.  Sheesh.... five years of this.  Should have paid for the upgrades... were are here on the farm til we croak.

 I would rarely ever increase the size of the system unless the home was added onto and it was imperative. That is why I always suggest re-insulating and sealing a home up and making it more efficient before replacing a system. The money spent tightening up the home is permanent savings.

 If your indoor unit is in the attic, you may be able to fix the noise from the blower by re-routing the return duct to absorb some of the noise and increase the return grill area- if it is in a closet in the hall, you can do little but perhaps use a sound absorbing material below the platform and sometimes inside the blower housing.
 But with a system pushing more cfm, your ducting may still be causing a high static condition and causing the blower motor to try and compensate.
 If you up sized only a half ton (200 cfm), and you have walk-in closets and baths that have no ducts, perhaps you could just add ducts to those spaces to make up the difference.   Perhaps also add a duct to a room that seems deficient in air. ?

[johndi]

From the peanut gallery: my condenser went this summer, and my furnace was 25 years old so I replaced both.
I have natural gas for the furnace.
The electric bill for the last 2 months of summer and my gas bill so far this winter are 1/2 of what they were with the old units.
I live in the NE so YMMV.

[fredhargis]

Oscar, have you decided on anything yet after this discussion?

[oscarMadison]

think, I'll go with a regular furnace and ac. Going to start calling for some estimates. Trying to find somebody reliable to call for estimates. I like the guys that put the furnace in my shop so I'll call them. Asking around I haven't heard to much positive about some of the other companies. Just looking for something that will last and that I can get serviced if it is something I can't deal with.

I heat both my shop, house and water heater with gas and my bills are pretty low when I've checked around at work. So I figure even just a more efficient furnace should be a decent savings. The house had some insulation before I had it and I've added. Been slacking. Should have called around earlier.

[fredhargis]

Good approach, just remember if you start getting estimates and there's a big difference...there's also probably a reason for that they forgot to tell you. These guys are still salesman, after all.