Double-bevel marquetry and multiple woods
#9
  
Jerry's amazing bed frame got me wanting to try my hand at marquetry, but there is one thing I haven't really wrapped my head around. 

When you're doing a marquetry inlay with multiple woods (such as in Jerry's birds) how is this done? Cutting an inlay with one wood is a straightforward process, if not easy, at least in terms of complexity. However, suppose you want to do a bird where multiple woods make up the inlay. In addition, they butt up against each other. Here's an example:

[Image: fb7c5cdb77443709e9cf80bac1fa1c08--marquetry-inlays.jpg]
While this is a very complex example I don't think I'll ever be able to replicate, I am curious to know how it's done. The most information I've found is "glue it in and continue, and subsequent cuts overlap previous cuts." So if I understand this correctly, each section of the chickadee done with a different wood is glued in to create a new "base layer" before continuing. This has to be larger than the final intended size, at least to account for the bevel where the (next) new piece fits in. In the extreme case, there is a layer of veneer for every section, which would be extremely wasteful.

I hope my question is clear. I obviously wouldn't start with something like this, but I would like to know how it's done.
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#10
  Re: Double-bevel marquetry and multiple woods by FS7 (Jerry's amazing bed ...)
I'm probably your least reliable source for information about marquetry since I've never done any myself; but from what I've read, all the various pieces of inlay material are stacked in a sandwich and cut all together at the same time. That way, all the cuts should line up perfectly. I don't know what you do about the saw kerf that is removed. That may not be a problem with a fine scroll saw blade.
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#11
  Re: RE: Double-bevel marquetry and multiple woods by Hank Knight (I'm probably your le...)
(12-06-2017, 09:43 AM)Hank Knight Wrote: I'm probably your least reliable source for information about marquetry since I've never done any myself; but from what I've read, all the various pieces of inlay material are stacked in a sandwich and cut all together at the same time. That way, all the cuts should line up perfectly. I don't know what you do about the saw kerf that is removed. That may not be a problem with a fine scroll saw blade.

I've read that it's not a problem with a very fine blade and with glue swelling, sanding sealers, and so on the kerf lines disappear. That might be true. However, that would only work for vertically aligned blades. 

In the double bevel technique, the blade is angled in (towards the center of the inlay). If veneers were all stacked and cut together, they would only fit into the layer directly above them. In the chickadee example (or any similar example) that doesn't work.

Here's how I understand this process. First, the parquet-type background and an inlay piece (suppose the dark wood on the left inner wing) is cut together. The dark wood then fits like a cork into the background. Now, what happens? If you cut only that piece of the inner wing according to the pattern, the inner edge (facing the inside of the inlay) would have the wrong bevel angle. It would have to be slightly larger to allow the bevel to be cut at a correct angle. But then marquetry is glued to the substrate, not to the surrounding veneer, so this wouldn't work.

I am so confused. I have to be missing something.
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#12
  Re: RE: Double-bevel marquetry and multiple woods by FS7 ([quote='Hank Knight'...)
Hi fs7 – I will try to answer your questions, but as you discovered in asking the questions it gets a bit convoluted. In theory you start with piece of wood that is furthest back in the picture and work yourself forward – like doing a picture in a desk top publishing program – using layers – starting at the back and moving to the front. As an example in the picture of you posted the tail feathers and left wing feathers could be done first – cause there is nothing behind them. As you work forward you continually cut over the last line you made. However no matter how much planning there will always be a last piece – the foremost – that you have to deal with.
 
In my case I use shop cut veneers that are 5/64th”. When I am cutting the veneers to place I use a 00 jeweler’s blade at a 7 degree angle. Cutting through the background piece and the inset piece at the same time. These factors create a seamless joint. (There are tables that give the settings if you adjust one of the variables). Each piece is pierced with a tiny drill to insert the jeweler’s blade -  however the final piece always has a hole in it for threading the saw blade through. On this last one you exaggerate the angle so the pierced hole is just inside the piece you taking out and just beyond the piece you are inserting. It does take some practice to figure it out.
 
If there’s not a class around, I would recommend craig vandal stevens’ book – the art of marquetry. He’s really good – good pictures and explanations.
Hope this helps and makes some sense
jerry
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#13
  Re: Double-bevel marquetry and multiple woods by FS7 (Jerry's amazing bed ...)
Looks like sand shading was used to add some detail to the feathers, too.
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#14
  Re: Double-bevel marquetry and multiple woods by FS7 (Jerry's amazing bed ...)
jcousins2's answer is the best and most accurate.
Double bevel sawn work (conically sawn) has to be produced cut by cut. The packet sawing type work mentioned above is not the method for conically sawn.
Packet sawing is for the Boulle method (straight Boulle), or painting in wood method, also considered a Boulle method. Piece by piece method (element par element, in French) also uses packets, but in that method, any given packet is nothing more than multiple leaves of the very same veneer. The easiest way to spot a packet and know that it has been used in piece by piece method is that the cut out material (the "holes" in the "Swiss cheese" that is the packet) bears no resemblance to the cartoon. Boulle packets and painting in wood packets look like the cartoon.
Conically sawn (what you're calling double bevel) is often chosen for highly naturalistic pictures, like wildlife and so on. If that's what you want to do, and that's the method you choose, you will NOT be working with packets. If on the other hand, you're doing other types of marquetry, conically sawn is not the best choice. A marqueteur friend of mine, very skilled, wants to see the kerf in painting in wood-style work. Without that (authentic) kerf showing, he dislikes the work.
Someday, somebody (maybe it's going to be me) is going to smash the idol that is "double bevel" marquetry. It's a method. It's even good. I like it. However, it is not the only way. It is not for everything. Boulle method and painting in wood have their place.
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#15
  Re: RE: Double-bevel marquetry and multiple woods by Paul K. Murphy (jcousins2's answer i...)
(12-08-2017, 10:50 PM)Paul K. Murphy Wrote: jcousins2's answer is the best and most accurate.
Double bevel sawn work (conically sawn) has to be produced cut by cut. The packet sawing type work mentioned above is not the method for conically sawn.
Packet sawing is for the Boulle method (straight Boulle), or painting in wood method, also considered a Boulle method. Piece by piece method (element par element, in French) also uses packets, but in that method, any given packet is nothing more than multiple leaves of the very same veneer. The easiest way to spot a packet and know that it has been used in piece by piece method is that the cut out material (the "holes" in the "Swiss cheese" that is the packet) bears no resemblance to the cartoon. Boulle packets and painting in wood packets look like the cartoon.
Conically sawn (what you're calling double bevel) is often chosen for highly naturalistic pictures, like wildlife and so on. If that's what you want to do, and that's the method you choose, you will NOT be working with packets. If on the other hand, you're doing other types of marquetry, conically sawn is not the best choice. A marqueteur friend of mine, very skilled, wants to see the kerf in painting in wood-style work. Without that (authentic) kerf showing, he dislikes the work.
Someday, somebody (maybe it's going to be me) is going to smash the idol that is "double bevel" marquetry. It's a method. It's even good. I like it. However, it is not the only way. It is not for everything. Boulle method and painting in wood have their place.

I certainly didn't intend to start a debate - as mentioned, I have no experience with marquetry, but I love woodworking and I love birds so I thought I'd take a crack at it. Jerry said he used the double bevel method to make his piece, which is why I asked. I know the example piece I posted wasn't what he used, but I was simply confused about how it would be done (for the reasons you mentioned).

This is good information - knowing that different methods are better or worse for the type of image you're trying to create. I plan to poke around doing one-wood outlines, kits (which aren't conically sawn, as I understand them), and then maybe multiple-wood pieces. Trial and error is a good method to learn this stuff. I like the seamless look of double bevel, but it seems there is some difficulty and planning that goes into creating more complex images.
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#16
  Re: Double-bevel marquetry and multiple woods by FS7 (Jerry's amazing bed ...)
I'm glad you asked, and it's an interesting topic. I have no intention to debate. I don't see a debate, and I'm not so bellicose as to start one. There are many methods for marquetry, and the understanding of the methods is not widespread. Observe:
Boulle Method: A packet is constructed of various veneers. A cartoon affixed to the top is sawn out, and the leaves of veneer later intermingled. Saw at 90*. Sawkerfs are a fact of life.
Painting in Wood: Very much the same method as Boulle. The difference is that the various layers in the packet are not a single leaf of veneer. Each layer is a patchwork (like a quilt) of the woods required for any given motif.
Piece by Piece: Numerous packets are constructed, each packet one type of wood alone. The cartoon is cut out with a knife to separate each motif. Cutting a maple packet for a single leaf (or whatever) might yield as many as sixteen pieces, all of that one item. The pieces are NOT sawn in superimposition. Unlike Boulle, piece by piece does not produce two pieces at once. Also, the work at the saw does not look like the cartoon at all.
Conically Sawn: This is the double bevel method.each new piece is added in superimposition to the existing composition. For this method, there isn't a packet like in the others. This is done one piece at a time.
Eclaté: Way too complex to explain. Eclaté is a unique combination of Boulle and Piece by Piece. This is the one that Raymond shows in his book, where motifs have been knifed apart and spread down on top of a Boulle packet. I've never done it by the way. It's a very advanced method, but well suited to producing multiples.
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