Dust Collection
#11
  
I know this subject has been beaten over and over but I would like some advice. 
I have a 500sq ft shop and my current major tools are TS, BS, jointer, planer.  I currently have one of those hang on the wall DC 1 hp.  I am looking to upgrade to something larger.

Looking at either something like this http://www.grizzly.com/products/3-HP-Dus...rizzly.com

or http://www.grizzly.com/products/3HP-Doub...rizzly.com



Sure a cyclone would be nice, but I have read the specs and the cyclones do not seem to have the same suction ratings as these do.  Or is there something I am missing with a cyclone and suction isnt the same? 

The other concern I have is power consumption. I live out in the country and in an older house. Obviously a 240V machine is going to take up more juice. The thing is I am running out of spots on my panel and running the TS and planer at the same time I can see the lights dim.  I only have 100A service in my shop and my house is on 100A as well.  I have talked to the power company about running 200A service to my house, but there is about a 500$ cost in upgrading my transformer at the street. ugg... I am sure I am going to get a bunch of answers.  But is a 3HP dust collector too big for my shop? Is it overkill?  Would a 2HP be better.  Its rare that I would run two machines at the same time unless my wife is out helping me. 

The hang on the wall DC is junk, it cannot handle the planer. It can barely keep up with the TS.  Maybe if I got rid of the flex hose and used PVC or rigid hose it would perform better but that is not something I want to spend time on with that DC.
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#12
  Re: Dust Collection by bmich (I know this subject ...)
My thoughts: if you have a 100 amp panel, and it's separate from the house 100 amp///you have more than plenty of power. My last 2 shops and my current one all had 100 amps, and it's plenty adequate for any hobbyist shop....even with several larger motors running (on separate circuits of course). As for the cyclones having less air flow, that's the magic of letting the marketing folks have anything to do with the listing of tools. In almost all cases (there are a few honest ads out there, key word: few) the quoted air flow is about as accurate as the 6.5 HP your shop vac does (n't) have. So skip that measurement for the moment. Cyclones add a huge amount of drag to any DC system, so for the same performance you will often see larger motors and impellers. The advantages do may them worth it (IMHO), but that cost can be substantial. If you stay with a SS DC, the ones you linked will do a nice job....as long as you have good supporting duct work for them. Choke them down to 4" and you will be just as well off with a slightly smaller unit (maybe a 2HP with 12" impeller). But to your direct question: if you have a 6" duct running to your machines, the 3 HP units will do a very nice job. They will do a nice job with 4" duct as well....but so will a smaller DC; and if you haven't considered the cost of ductwork, it may well equal the cost of the DC itself.
I started with absolutely nothing. Now, thanks to years of hard work, careful planning, and perseverance, I find I still have most of it left.
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#13
  Re: Dust Collection by bmich (I know this subject ...)
(01-16-2018, 11:50 PM)bmich Wrote: Sure a cyclone would be nice, but I have read the specs and the cyclones do not seem to have the same suction ratings as these do.  Or is there something I am missing with a cyclone and suction isnt the same?  The air flow specs for the bag/filter units are given at 0" static pressure, and the Griz cyclones are at 2" SP.  And as stated, unless real performance curves are supplied, flow figures are usually kinda questionable.  

The other concern I have is power consumption. I live out in the country and in an older house. Obviously a 240V machine is going to take up more juice.  Not necessarily.  The same motor running on 120V draws twice the current for a given load, but only draws that current from one of the two poles from the transformer (the neutral doesn't count).  Your 100A 120/240V panel will deliver 24,000 watts (24kW) or 24,000 volt-amps (24kVA).  That's 100A of 240V power, or 200A of 120V power, based on the main breaker rating.  200A at 120V, since we tend to think in terms of the familiar 120V, is a LOT of power for a small shop.  

It's also approximately 20 hp worth - 32 electrical hp, but the way induction motors work (efficiency less than 100%, and something called 'power factor', which is current that mostly energizes the windings but doesn't register on your electric meter, but still flows over the conductors), it's more like 21 hp of actual shaft output power.  That's assuming motors with poor efficiency and power factor, by the way, so larger, modern motors would actually do better.


The thing is I am running out of spots on my panel and running the TS and planer at the same time I can see the lights dim.  Are they 120V machines, and are they on the same pole as the lights?   I only have 100A service in my shop and my house is on 100A as well.  I have talked to the power company about running 200A service to my house, but there is about a 500$ cost in upgrading my transformer at the street. ugg... I am sure I am going to get a bunch of answers.  But is a 3HP dust collector too big for my shop? Is it overkill?  Would a 2HP be better.  Its rare that I would run two machines at the same time unless my wife is out helping me.  I would use a 3 hp as a minimum.  The longer and smaller the ductwork, the more dust collector blower you need, though you should strive to keep the ductwork as short and smooth and efficient as you can.  

The hang on the wall DC is junk, it cannot handle the planer. It can barely keep up with the TS.  Maybe if I got rid of the flex hose and used PVC or rigid hose it would perform better but that is not something I want to spend time on with that DC.  Sounds like big loads.  I don't know what your current DC is, but it sounds like too little.

To get a sense of how much power you actually need, there are several methods you can use.  Easiest is to decide on what loads have to run concurrently - lights, dust collector, planer or saw (or both), and any other loads.  Add up the wattage of all those 120V loads that are rated in watts (like lights), and add up the rated nameplate current of all the 120V motors, and do the same with all the 240V motors that will run concurrently, but keep those sums all separate.  

Then divide the total wattage by 240V, and divide the 120V motor current total by 2, and then add the current from all three categories together (make no adjustments to the 240V current other than adding to the others).  That's your max current requirement, though a shop service should have at least another 20% available.  With 100A service, I'd be amazed if you're anywhere near using all that up.  Probably only half that.

And do make sure large 120V loads are on the two opposite poles in the panel, though one of them is bound to be on the same pole as the lights, since there are only two hot poles in a single-phase 120/240V panel.
Tom

“This place smells like that odd combo of flop sweat, hopelessness, aaaand feet.”







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#14
  Re: Dust Collection by bmich (I know this subject ...)
Thank you everyone for the help. The lights and planer are on the same circuit. I think I just need to run more separate circuits and get the lights by themselves. or switch over to LED shop lights and not fluorescent.

So a 2HP running 4''duct is the same as a 3hp running 6''duct. Is there a benefit to a larger duct? Less clogs?
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#15
  Re: RE: Dust Collection by bmich (Thank you everyone f...)
My Jet 1100 blower 1 1/2HP 110V) w/ SDD cyclone with 6" ducts works great. 

IMO venting outside is what makes up the difference.

On a budget, take a look at the Harbor Freight 2HP collector.

From past experience, I can tell you never use 4" ducts on any blower over 2HP.
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#16
  Re: Dust Collection by bmich (I know this subject ...)
I use a double bag 3hp unit for my 600 square foot shop.  I bought a model with an 8" inlet.  I have two branches of piping that are 4" and 6" and end up at the dust collector location as two 6" pipes.  I had a custom fitting welded to take those into one 8" inlet.   I have had no problems with the system.  everything flows nicely.










I love not having the noise annoying DC in my shop! Because it's remote I did not bother with the expense of a pleated filter upper. Also, I built a custom base so as to raise up the bags to make them easier to change and allow for the low mounted inlets to easily transition to the blower inlet.
WoodNET... the new safespace
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#17
  Re: Dust Collection by bmich (I know this subject ...)
I'm curious as to why you say your dust collector can't handle the planer. I use an inexpensive 1 HP DC (Powertec) that's also a wall-hanging type because I need the space savings. It hangs over the table saw storage area.

I have the dust collector routed using 4" metal ducting to a Dust Deputy with a 15-gallon container, which is then routed using mostly flexible ducting and blast gates to the primary dust makers (planer, jointer, and tablesaw). The planer is the DW735. For what it's worth, I've seen it work exactly as intended - the cyclone separator pulls in all the chips, a little bit of dust sticks to the sides of the clear hose, and the fine dust is captured by the actual DC bag (which has no chips as far as I can tell). 

The standard shop vacuum couldn't handle the planer at all, and I wouldn't try using the actual DC bag for a planer without a cyclone separator. If you're running yours directly into the wall-mounted DC bag, I'd definitely consider adding a cyclone before upgrading to a bigger model. They really do work wonders.
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#18
  Re: Dust Collection by bmich (I know this subject ...)
(01-17-2018, 09:28 AM)bmich Wrote: So a 2HP running 4''duct is the same as a 3hp running 6''duct.  Is there a benefit to a larger duct?  Less clogs?

Absolutely not, and if I said my stuff in a way that made you think that, I apologize. Good dust collection is all about airflow to the point of creation. A 6" duct with a adequate DC will move a lot more air than a 4" duct with the same DC, less so with a smaller DC. But there are limits to how much air you can pull through a given duct size, and hooking a 3 HP DC to a 4" duct is just too much blower for that size ducting. So, a 2 HP will work better for the smaller duct, and cost less. Imbedded in all this is a lot more stuff than can be easily addressed. Clogs are caused by the air not moving fast enough, say your wall DC hooked to a 6" duct. The air speed would not be enough to carry the chips, but put on a smaller duct and it will work better (but maybe not acceptably) since the air will be moving faster. It's clique to say this, but check the Pentz site and read the FAQ section, it's a very good overview of some stuff you may not be thinking over.
I started with absolutely nothing. Now, thanks to years of hard work, careful planning, and perseverance, I find I still have most of it left.
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#19
  Re: RE: Dust Collection by FS7 (I'm curious as to wh...)
(01-17-2018, 10:18 AM)FS7 Wrote: I'm curious as to why you say your dust collector can't handle the planer. I use an inexpensive 1 HP DC (Powertec) that's also a wall-hanging type because I need the space savings. It hangs over the table saw storage area.

I have the dust collector routed using 4" metal ducting to a Dust Deputy with a 15-gallon container, which is then routed using mostly flexible ducting and blast gates to the primary dust makers (planer, jointer, and tablesaw). The planer is the DW735. For what it's worth, I've seen it work exactly as intended - the cyclone separator pulls in all the chips, a little bit of dust sticks to the sides of the clear hose, and the fine dust is captured by the actual DC bag (which has no chips as far as I can tell). 

The standard shop vacuum couldn't handle the planer at all, and I wouldn't try using the actual DC bag for a planer without a cyclone separator. If you're running yours directly into the wall-mounted DC bag, I'd definitely consider adding a cyclone before upgrading to a bigger model. They really do work wonders.

That DW725 has an integrated blower, through, so you might not get the same results were you to remove that blower, or use a planer model w/o a blower.
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#20
  Re: RE: Dust Collection by FS7 (I'm curious as to wh...)
(01-17-2018, 10:18 AM)FS7 Wrote: I'm curious as to why you say your dust collector can't handle the planer. I use an inexpensive 1 HP DC (Powertec) that's also a wall-hanging type because I need the space savings. It hangs over the table saw storage area.

I have the dust collector routed using 4" metal ducting to a Dust Deputy with a 15-gallon container, which is then routed using mostly flexible ducting and blast gates to the primary dust makers (planer, jointer, and tablesaw). The planer is the DW735. For what it's worth, I've seen it work exactly as intended - the cyclone separator pulls in all the chips, a little bit of dust sticks to the sides of the clear hose, and the fine dust is captured by the actual DC bag (which has no chips as far as I can tell). 

The standard shop vacuum couldn't handle the planer at all, and I wouldn't try using the actual DC bag for a planer without a cyclone separator. If you're running yours directly into the wall-mounted DC bag, I'd definitely consider adding a cyclone before upgrading to a bigger model. They really do work wonders.
 I have a DW734 and it clogs all the time.  I have the wall mounted DC just using flex 4'' hose.  I used to have a separator hooked up. One of those types that use a garbage can and you drill out the top and add hoses.  But it doesnt work at all. some rockler crap, I thought looked good at the time.  The plan is to build a bump out on the back of the shop to store the DC in and not take up valuable shop space but its winter here and that isnt an option yet.  What about brands? who runs a grizzly?  Cost with them is nice to see.  Obviously, USA made would be nice, but nothing is made here anymore.  I went through that when looking for a TS.
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