I'm in the wrong line or work. $3,000 barn wood doors
#39
(01-30-2018, 10:03 AM)FS7 Wrote: I've paid $5 for a bottle of water at an amusement park or $10 for a beer at a sporting event. That doesn't change my opinion of the institutions that charge those prices. I do not want to do repeat business with them and only do so when I'm a captive audience.

As someone that has had my share of struggles w/ contractors (having built-out four different retail locations), there is a flip-side to your story, which is contractors that deliver shoddy workmanship, fail to achieve an aesthetic, pimp for early draws, or simply collapse and provide a litany of excuses for why a project won't be finished on-time, if at all.

By the time I was on my third build-out, I was willing to pay more to avoid all of the above.  Nobody held a gun to my head, I wasn't a captive audience, I picked the contractor, the contractor named their price, my experience with the contractor was an enormous contributing factor in deciding if I'd sign on the dotted line.

Imagine everything that goes into doors like that.  For example, endless meetings w/ a client that can't make up their mind.  How about adding some margin for a client that might want to make a change (perhaps to the finish) w/o being dinged w/ a change order?  How about the effort it might have taken to find the stock, transport it, sort it, prepare it (may have involved cleaning it with a wire brush in an angle grinder).  Consider there might have been a decent amount of waste.  Also not only had to build the doors, but install them.  Also will be required to come back and make adjustments should they be required.  If the hardware fails and the contractor picked it, the client will demand that he fix it.

Consider the contractor doesn't have a different day-job, has to pay for insurance, probably has a family to support, likely has a commercial shop they have to pay for, machines, tooling, etc.

It all adds up, and from my perspective a contractor like this that sets a price and makes the client happy, makes it easier (not harder) for any part-time guys to actually make a buck.

I say more power to him, he got the work done and the client is happy with it.
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#40
(01-30-2018, 10:20 AM)Phil Thien Wrote: I say more power to him, he got the work done and the client is happy with it.

Absolutely!
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#41
(01-30-2018, 10:20 AM)Phil Thien Wrote: As someone that has had my share of struggles w/ contractors (having built-out four different retail locations), there is a flip-side to your story, which is contractors that deliver shoddy workmanship, fail to achieve an aesthetic, pimp for early draws, or simply collapse and provide a litany of excuses for why a project won't be finished on-time, if at all.

By the time I was on my third build-out, I was willing to pay more to avoid all of the above.  Nobody held a gun to my head, I wasn't a captive audience, I picked the contractor, the contractor named their price, my experience with the contractor was an enormous contributing factor in deciding if I'd sign on the dotted line.

Imagine everything that goes into doors like that.  For example, endless meetings w/ a client that can't make up their mind.  How about adding some margin for a client that might want to make a change (perhaps to the finish) w/o being dinged w/ a change order?  How about the effort it might have taken to find the stock, transport it, sort it, prepare it (may have involved cleaning it with a wire brush in an angle grinder).  Consider there might have been a decent amount of waste.  Also not only had to build the doors, but install them.  Also will be required to come back and make adjustments should they be required.  If the hardware fails and the contractor picked it, the client will demand that he fix it.

Consider the contractor doesn't have a different day-job, has to pay for insurance, probably has a family to support, likely has a commercial shop they have to pay for, machines, tooling, etc.

It all adds up, and from my perspective a contractor like this that sets a price and makes the client happy, makes it easier (not harder) for any part-time guys to actually make a buck.

I say more power to him, he got the work done and the client is happy with it.

You're describing a worst-case scenario - a nightmare client and a job that just won't go right - which isn't what was described at all. I'm in the software business, not the trades. However, the same thing applies - there are occasionally nightmare jobs, and they generally result in lost money. You charge about what the job is worth and all of your expenses are considered. Going over budget and charging the client more is usually how you end up with unsatisfied clients (unless you're a government contractor).

My neighbors had a deck and patio done (improperly) by partner contractors. I have no idea what it cost, but they came recommended, so we discussed the idea of getting a fence and steps down from our existing deck. I was quoted nearly $11,000 for a horse fence and over $13,000 for steps down from a second-story deck (nine feet to the ground). EVERY other competing quote we got was less than half that for each job, but this guy had reasons why he was worth so much. Having seen he and his crews build our neighbors' deck and patio, I wholeheartedly disagree. His workmanship was no better or worse than anybody else's. Why was he charging so much?

He has plenty of satisfied clients. They were more than happy to dispose of their income. That still does not mean that he isn't unscrupulous and taking advantage of people who a) don't understand what a job should be worth and b) have plenty of money to spend. I think the fact that other contractors came in below half on all of his bids are indicative of that.

My father-in-law owns a roofing and general contracting business. He will tell you that business and commercial jobs are the real money makers because they are a) easier to please and b) rarely negotiate. He says he doesn't bid higher because it's a business, just that they're easier to deal with for those reasons. I would imagine that most individuals aren't going to pay $3000 for barnwood doors unless they have more money than sense (like the people spending $300K for a dog's "bedroom").
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#42
(01-30-2018, 10:20 AM)Phil Thien Wrote: As someone that has had my share of struggles w/ contractors (having built-out four different retail locations), there is a flip-side to your story, which is contractors that deliver shoddy workmanship, fail to achieve an aesthetic, pimp for early draws, or simply collapse and provide a litany of excuses for why a project won't be finished on-time, if at all.

By the time I was on my third build-out, I was willing to pay more to avoid all of the above.  Nobody held a gun to my head, I wasn't a captive audience, I picked the contractor, the contractor named their price, my experience with the contractor was an enormous contributing factor in deciding if I'd sign on the dotted line.

Imagine everything that goes into doors like that.  For example, endless meetings w/ a client that can't make up their mind.  How about adding some margin for a client that might want to make a change (perhaps to the finish) w/o being dinged w/ a change order?  How about the effort it might have taken to find the stock, transport it, sort it, prepare it (may have involved cleaning it with a wire brush in an angle grinder).  Consider there might have been a decent amount of waste.  Also not only had to build the doors, but install them.  Also will be required to come back and make adjustments should they be required.  If the hardware fails and the contractor picked it, the client will demand that he fix it.

Consider the contractor doesn't have a different day-job, has to pay for insurance, probably has a family to support, likely has a commercial shop they have to pay for, machines, tooling, etc.

It all adds up, and from my perspective a contractor like this that sets a price and makes the client happy, makes it easier (not harder) for any part-time guys to actually make a buck.

I say more power to him, he got the work done and the client is happy with it.
I have done work for this general contractor for over 18 years with 2 different mechanical contractors I've worked for in my 25 year career doing commercial HVAC.  They aren't the cheapest GC in town but they specialize in quick turn-arounds on commercial build-outs...as quickly as 30 days.  They use "select" contractors to work for them because we know the demands their customers have and the time constraints the customers put on them.   All the sub contractors know each other and we all look out for each other because the jobs are quick and we get paid quickly in return.  It's like a well oiled machine on a jobsite and there's no excuses not being done on time.

This general contractor is not a fly by night company and he has a great group of guys working under him along with the subcontractors he uses.
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#43
This comes up from time to time. Woodworkers complaining about what folks are spending on something that we might think of as junk. Someone said that its wood workers like this that give us a bad name, when in reality, its the woodworkers complaining about this that gives us a bad name.

If folks are happy to pay money for stuff like that, good for the builder. If folks are happy with a farm table made of construction 2x6's then what's the problem?

Supply and demand.
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#44
(01-30-2018, 02:52 PM)Scoony Wrote: This comes up from time to time. Woodworkers complaining about what folks are spending on something that we might think of as junk. Someone said that its wood workers like this that give us a bad name, when in reality, its the woodworkers complaining about this that gives us a bad name.

If folks are happy to pay money for stuff like that, good for the builder. If folks are happy with a farm table made of construction 2x6's then what's the problem?  

Supply and demand.

That was me, and I don't think that's a fair assessment. Are people doing the woodcraft trade a service by overcharging for lower quality workmanship? In my opinion, you can build and sell whatever you want provided you charge a fair price for it. If your price is not indicative of the quality of your piece, the most likely outcome is that your client ends up like they paid too much and got too little. The *best* case for everybody else is that they feel that they paid a fair price (or even got a bargain) and are happy, which drives up the prices for everybody else (which is good for sellers). However, we know how wood behaves. If wet construction lumber is edge-joined and stained one side only, there is about a 99.5% chance that the wood will warp and the joints will fail. What then?

When people bought Yugos, most understood it was a budget car. You don't pay BMW prices for Yugo quality without souring on the car industry as a whole.

Just my $.02, and I respectfully disagree with the notion that people who share my opinion are the problem.
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#45
(01-30-2018, 01:40 PM)Duane N Wrote: I have done work for this general contractor for over 18 years with 2 different mechanical contractors I've worked for in my 25 year career doing commercial HVAC.  They aren't the cheapest GC in town but they specialize in quick turn-arounds on commercial build-outs...as quickly as 30 days.  They use "select" contractors to work for them because we know the demands their customers have and the time constraints the customers put on them.   All the sub contractors know each other and we all look out for each other because the jobs are quick and we get paid quickly in return.  It's like a well oiled machine on a jobsite and there's no excuses not being done on time.

This general contractor is not a fly by night company and he has a great group of guys working under him along with the subcontractors he uses.

This makes a lot of sense.  I thought this went into a private home.  In a commercial setting where there are projected opening dates, banks, loans, corporate overhead, lots of pressure to get it done right and ontime, to a point cost is no object.  A week delay could cost 100s of thousands of dollars in this corporate building environment.  

The other side of the coin is some people have more money than they can spend and cost is no object in getting what they want in a home.  I used to work in the town where the $300k dog house was built.  There are some crazy rich and some "crazy rich" people there.  I hope the house went at least to a good dog.  The town where I live now is known for the Millionaires being displaced by the Billionaires.  I am sure there are some crazy ways money gets spent here on building the uber-rich's second or maybe fifth home.
A carpenter's house is never done.
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#46
(01-30-2018, 03:55 PM)FS7 Wrote: When people bought Yugos, most understood it was a budget car. You don't pay BMW prices for Yugo quality without souring on the car industry as a whole.

I once sold a used Yugo to a guy when I was selling cars in New Jersey.  He paid more for the used Yugo than they originally sold new.  He was a happy camper when he drove off the lot because his trade in ended up going to the junk yard it was so bad. 
Big Grin   I wasn't a high pressure salesman either and probably why I only sold cars for 3 years. 
Yes
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