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(02-02-2018, 08:54 PM)Carl10 Wrote: I am sure it was an oversight on your part but I never said a tool doesn't have any smarts (obviously the electronic motor speed control is a level of "smart"). What I said was "any battery related smarts", which I have yet to find in a tool.
Again this keeps getting away from what the OP is asking, can you put a LiIon battery on a NiCad tool.
Nearly all current tools have "battery related smarts", please cite an example of any that do not.
The simple answer to the OPs question is that you cannot safely put a LiIon battery on a NiCad tool unless the tool was designed to accept both.
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(02-02-2018, 10:12 PM)crokett™ Wrote: This is the Ryobi drill I have. I've had mine at least 8 years. I replaced the original that I bought in 2000, or thereabouts.
https://www.ebay.com/i/273047976481?chn=ps...
You're wrong. LiIon batteries can be used in tools originally designed for NiCad. The tool doesn't care where the power comes from. 18V is 18V. The tool will draw as much amperage as it needs. This is DC power. If the battery can't deliver the power, the tool will run more slowly (like a NiCad battery that's running out of charge).
You are entitled to your opinions, but the facts I posted are accurate. I'd be interested to hear about your experience designing battery powered electrical systems, since it seems to differ from the experience posted by the engineers that design them.
AGAIN, the batteries can be safely substituted IF the TOOL is designed for it - like your Ryobi drill that has the electronics in the drill and battery packs (e.g "the smarts") to protect them. If the tool does not, it is not safe.
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(02-03-2018, 11:53 AM)EricU Wrote: lithium will "vent with flame" if overcharged or, less likely, discharged too far/quickly. This usually is described as an explosion, but it's not really as severe. I would be interested in any information about fatalities from this. Tesla fires get a lot of attention, but they don't explode, just burn up the car. Most lithium cells are sold with a protection circuit, but I don't know if tool batteries typically have that.
An explosion is arguably just a really fast fire, and the difference between flame and explosion is often a matter of conditions.
Teslas are an expensive product where the high cost of very safe controllers can be justified. I assume you mean lithium battery packs rather than "cells", since the cells themselves have no protection circuitry. As far as I know, all current LiIon packs due have protection circuitry (e.g. "smarts") but their could be low end units that still rely on the tool for protection.
The example I cited has been difficult to piece together, not a whole lot was left. Investigator's best theory is that the individual exchanged the nicad cells in the pack for LiIon. When the pack started to burn and ruptured, he likely poured water on it, causing it to explode. It's likely the exploding pieces of the tool severely wounded or killed him. When the sprinklers came on, it caused further explosions (Lithium reacts violently with water) and spread the fire. It was the ensuing lithium and magnesium fueled fire that caused the other fatalities and destroyed the plant.
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(02-01-2018, 12:39 PM)geek2me Wrote: And that is the risk. Performance characteristics and therefore controller requirements are different for both types of batteries.
It's rather unsafe to run a LiIon battery in a tool designed for NiCads. You might get lucky and it only destroys the battery or burns up, or you may well have an explosion.
Not worth it, don't do it.
I might say it depends on the maker of the tools. I have the fairly new 19.9v Craftsman drill and other drill that holds 1/4" drives and they told me I could use old 19.9 NiCad battery in the new drill and the Iithuim Ion in the old drill. I just had to make sure the drill batteries went into their own chargers since that is not interchangeable.
After a year now both sets of batteries are still going strong and find no difference between them except the Lithium Ion ones go longer and drop dead then and have to switch over and the NiCad just drains down so I know when to change it out. I do not see any power difference between either of the batteries either.
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(02-02-2018, 08:15 AM)geek2me Wrote: You mean the "Do not use with premium DEWALT batteries in DC970 or DC759 tools."??
As I said, a system can be designed to use both, but the OP was asking about substituting one for another in a system that was NOT designed for it.
After reading more of what geek2me said I think everyone is misunderstanding what he said and I did at first also.
We all know you can not put a D battery in a C batteries place because it does not fit and the other way around. I also do not think it would be wise to use a Lithion from Craftsman to a Harbor Frieght Lithion since I do not "think" they are built or made to the same specs.
Like I said I have to have two different chargers for both batteries and I will not force a Lithion into a NiCad charger since it was not made for it.
So lets get a grasp and see what he means and what you are talking about is the same thing.
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I don't think an incident involving home-built battery packs is anything I need to get too worried about. you would think that anyone enterprising enough to do that would have read enough to realize that liions need a liion specific charger, but apparently not.
Getting an adapter was a really good idea. On my drill, it is like a freshly charged Nicad pack for a long time. Nothing too startling, but a good upgrade. And my drill is still in good shape. I'm a little up in the air about getting another adapter for my reciprocating saw. I keep looking at the kits that include the recip saw, drill, impact, and oscillating tool. The brushless reciprocating saw is only 129 bare tool.
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(02-06-2018, 04:18 PM)EricU Wrote: I don't think an incident involving home-built battery packs is anything I need to get too worried about. you would think that anyone enterprising enough to do that would have read enough to realize that liions need a liion specific charger, but apparently not.
Getting an adapter was a really good idea. On my drill, it is like a freshly charged Nicad pack for a long time. Nothing too startling, but a good upgrade. And my drill is still in good shape. I'm a little up in the air about getting another adapter for my reciprocating saw. I keep looking at the kits that include the recip saw, drill, impact, and oscillating tool. The brushless reciprocating saw is only 129 bare tool.
I ordered the adapter off ebay and it came the other day. It wasn't cheap, but considering the amount of time it would have taken me to fab something up and the fact that it was a 3d printed part meaning it had to have a few bucks in materials, so I guess it's worth it. I still don't have a current 18v lithium system, so I can't comment on how well it works. I've looked for some sort of board I could wire in that would cut the battery out if voltage dropped too low, but haven't seen anything suitable yet. The batteries have status led's on them, so I think as long as I am judicious in it's use, I should be just fine.
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EvilTwin,
If you are using a name brand battery you should not have an issue. I think on 18V LiIon they are fairly flat in output until ~15V and then drop off and the tool will stop working. In addition the battery self protection resides IN the battery pack. Some knock off batteries may cut a corner but the name brands would/could never risk skipping the battery protection IN the battery. You will be fine.
Keep us posted.
Carl
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Eviltwin, where did you get a liion charger? If I didn't get a charger with my weedwhacker, I would have bought the dewalt adapter kit for $100. I see there is a Chinese charger on amazon that has a number of positive reviews, but I think I would only go with dewalt on that one.
The people that have torn down the Chinese packs have been pretty positive about them. They seem to have copied the Dewalt packs pretty closely.
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(02-07-2018, 06:20 AM)EricU Wrote: Eviltwin, where did you get a liion charger? If I didn't get a charger with my weedwhacker, I would have bought the dewalt adapter kit for $100. I see there is a Chinese charger on amazon that has a number of positive reviews, but I think I would only go with dewalt on that one.
The people that have torn down the Chinese packs have been pretty positive about them. They seem to have copied the Dewalt packs pretty closely.
I don't have the charger or batteries yet. Looking online to see what I can find, best deal seems to be the Bosch 18v drill for 99 on amazon with (2) 1.5ah batteries and a charger. The adapter I got is specific to the new Bosch design, so it has to be Bosch batteries. The best I seem to be able to find for a charger and batteries alone is about 79 bucks, so for 20 extra, I'll just get the kit with the drill.
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