Shoddy trim carpentry

[FS7]

This isn't really a question as much as it is a rant.

I had a house built in 2014 and my wife and I made a conscious decision to use a "major" builder (Ryan Homes) with a style we liked rather than a custom builder. In our area, it's almost financially impossible to have a true custom built unless you've got quite a bit of cash laying around. That is, the cash on hand required is about what it costs to build a home in its entirety elsewhere. So, we did it, and it turned out pretty well (for the most part), though babysitting the construction process was essentially a second job.

Some things they did that were perfectly acceptable to them (but not to me) were small things like masking hinges instead of removing them before painting. I just bought a box of 100 hinges in bulk and redid them myself when I got the chance. Some still aren't done, but what I did was when I would see one that bothered me, I'd just remove the old one, paint, and replace it.

Given that I was still fixing gaps and settling issues in my old house (27 years old at the time I moved), I don't have any real problems with the guy who did most of the trim carpentry (baseboards, crown, and such). However, the guy who did the stairs must have been drunk. There are two sets of stairs in the house, and the base plates or base rails (I'm not really sure what they're called) are just so sloppy. Really, all of the stairs are sloppy. Naturally, they stain after they install, which is terrible. The back part of the handrails are largely unstained and unsealed, which I am fixing now (and will fix the other later). The base plates are secured to the underlying framing through Forstner-drilled holes covered with buttons (that's fine). However, they aren't even close to aligned. There are six screws - two at the top, two at the bottom, and two in the middle. They don't line up, and even if you were eyeballing you'd do fine. I mean the middle screws are off by an inch. I covered one with a second decorative oak board, which is sad in and of itself. The mitered returns weren't cut square and were just intended to be butted up against the wall, which meant a lot of damaged drywall and a lot of caulk. Dark brown stain on oak with white caulk? Hell, what could go wrong?

I know I'm a perfectionist, but I honestly don't know who could sleep at night putting their name on this work. Yes, this is northern Virginia, which means the guy has probably been deported since then, but that's not the point. I remember reading a thread (maybe here, maybe somewhere else) called "Fixing behind the builder" and it just rang true. I know people like old homes with "character" but I realized after having one built that the "character" is really just the sloppy work of the initial builder that was never fixed.

[K. L. McReynolds]

When I retired from my real job(mechanic), I started a remodeling business. What you experienced is mild, unfortunately.

Had a new house built in 1978---the basic building was really good---the finish work was pitiful, much worse than what you have. The builder tried to get workers to fix the problems, but after three tries, he actually refunded some money. One reason I learned trim work---I wound up replacing most of the trim after staining/finishing it.

Slam Bam, Thank You work.

[Snipe Hunter]

I inspect a lot of new Ryan Homes. Keep in mind that they're building hundreds if not thousands of these things all the time. My son bought a Ryan Home here in MD. I can walk into a home and tell it was built by Ryan or NVRyan. They use the cheapest vinyl windows, CPVC water supply piping, flex gas lines to the furnace and water heater and the trim is prefinished and generally not done with much care. Most folks don't even notice. I see a lot of miss-matched stain on the stair parts. It's all prefinished too, generally veneered plywood with an oak bullnose and the landings are built on site, I know this because the stain never matches. They sure look nice on the outside though. A can tell you that they do honor their 1 year warranty but they won't fix anything that was in the same condition on move in day. They'll fix nail pops and failed components but not cosmetic issues.

I just inspected one where an outdoor electric receptacle was behind the supply pipe coming from the gas meter. You couldn't open the cover because it was blocked by the pipe. They fixed it.

[FS7]

I inspect a lot of new Ryan Homes. Keep in mind that they're building hundreds if not thousands of these things all the time. My son bought a Ryan Home here in MD. I can walk into a home and tell it was built by Ryan or NVRyan. They use the cheapest vinyl windows, CPVC water supply piping, flex gas lines to the furnace and water heater and the trim is prefinished and generally not done with much care. Most folks don't even notice. I see a lot of miss-matched stain on the stair parts. It's all prefinished too, generally veneered plywood with an oak bullnose and the landings are built on site, I know this because the stain never matches. They sure look nice on the outside though. A can tell you that they do honor their 1 year warranty but they won't fix anything that was in the same condition on move in day. They'll fix nail pops and failed components.

My father-in-law owns a roofing and general contracting company, so we have secondary confirmation that the siding, windows, and roofing are quality. Interestingly enough, their build standards (default options) had changed between the time we signed and the time the roofing and siding was installed, so all of that was redone before we even moved in.

Plumbing and electrical I know pretty well, and that was done well. I don't have any complaints. CPVC is what they used here, and it's what I used to plumb in additional filtration (we're on fairly dirty well water). I have had no problems with plumbing besides one oddity (one gas joint wasn't doped) and electrical besides one oddity (the sealed attic had a box that was left loose). That remains pretty solid. We don't have any flex lines anywhere.

They most certainly do honor their one year (10 month, really) warranty. They fixed everything that had even remotely gone wrong, our fault or not, and a bunch of stuff that really hadn't. After that, you're on your own. I am slightly more realistic in this regard, since my parents (together a long time ago, and then my mother more recently) built their own homes. Even custom builders encounter problems, so it's not limited to the big guys.

What I tell people is that the guts are sound but the detail work is relatively poor and when you live there you notice it. However, for actual dollars spent, the sealing of the house is solid and I don't burn that much cash on propane in the winter. That counts for something.

[FS7]

When I retired from my real job(mechanic), I started a remodeling business. What you experienced is mild, unfortunately.

Had a new house built in 1978---the basic building was really good---the finish work was pitiful, much worse than what you have. The builder tried to get workers to fix the problems, but after three tries, he actually refunded some money. One reason I learned trim work---I wound up replacing most of the trim after staining/finishing it.

Slam Bam, Thank You work.

This reminds me - I saw my construction manager get frustrated exactly once. During the build process, either he (sometimes) or we (most of the time) would notice something that was obviously wrong. We'd tell him and he, being an earnest young fellow (probably 24), would tell his crews to fix it. They'd tell him they would, but they would either ignore it or do such a pathetic job of "fixing" it it didn't warrant notification. One time, after the third time I'd told him, he threw his clipboard. I felt for him at that point, since absent the ability to do it himself or hire his own crew there wasn't really much he could do.

Our neighbors got it so much worse. Down at the end of the street there's a house that I realized was missing a shutter - they went to install the exterior faux shutters and missed one side of one window. I thought that was odd, but talking to the homeowner they had actually somehow screwed up the floorplan and shaved off a few feet of house on both floors. How that happened I have no idea, but it did make me realize it could be so much worse.

[packerguy®]

I feel for you. I've seen and heard this story over and over. 

When we bought our current house we were faced with the choice of buying the $600k new construction or buying an older house, at a far reduced cost. I feel as you do, if your paying top dollar for a home, I don't want corners cut. Do it right since I am paying for it. We ended up buying the older house, and will be happy putting 75-100k in it over a number of years doing the roof, siding, windows, etc. We already replaced the furnace and AC, done lots to the yard and such. Least we know its done right. 

Other than that, for me a major consideration was the construction of the house itself. Its really stunning how cheap houses are made now....everything is an engineered material, that is open to the elements while being built so its no wonder when you eyeball a drywalled wall, its wavy as heck. Not to mention the leaks.....there arent many people that ive talked with that have the modern roof lines with peaks and valleys everywhere, that dont have leaks. With builders, they say time is money....and unfortunately, if its covered up, its a way to save time, and make more money. 

I have a friend that has a fancy new house (were talking 800k+) with a gas fireplace. Never could understand why the flame seemed so weak. His dad owns an HVAC company and he was over working on the furnace (this house is only 3 years old BTW) and he looked at the fireplace....turns out the burner was full of drywall dust. They must have not bothered to cover it.

I dont think I would ever build a house, or buy something built after 1990 ish.

[The Tinman]

I had a new house (PreFab) built for myself using their set plans with a few modifications about 3 years ago. When deciding on the finish aspects, I asked that they not do many trim work at all and leave it bare, that I would do it myself.  The sales guy tried to talk me out of it, saying that a few clients had tried to save a few bucks and do it themselves and were overwhelmed in the cost and process. I explained that I do this kind of work for a living, have my own shop with molders and shapers and I planed to make solid oak Victorian style trim. There is no way I was going to put up with the shoddy workmanship and inferior materials of prefab housing.

[FS7]

I feel for you. I've seen and heard this story over and over. 

When we bought our current house we were faced with the choice of buying the $600k new construction or buying an older house, at a far reduced cost. I feel as you do, if your paying top dollar for a home, I don't want corners cut. Do it right since I am paying for it. We ended up buying the older house, and will be happy putting 75-100k in it over a number of years doing the roof, siding, windows, etc. We already replaced the furnace and AC, done lots to the yard and such. Least we know its done right. 

Other than that, for me a major consideration was the construction of the house itself. Its really stunning how cheap houses are made now....everything is an engineered material, that is open to the elements while being built so its no wonder when you eyeball a drywalled wall, its wavy as heck. Not to mention the leaks.....there arent many people that ive talked with that have the modern roof lines with peaks and valleys everywhere, that dont have leaks. With builders, they say time is money....and unfortunately, if its covered up, its a way to save time, and make more money. 

I have a friend that has a fancy new house (were talking 800k+) with a gas fireplace. Never could understand why the flame seemed so weak. His dad owns an HVAC company and he was over working on the furnace (this house is only 3 years old BTW) and he looked at the fireplace....turns out the burner was full of drywall dust. They must have not bothered to cover it.

I dont think I would ever build a house, or buy something built after 1990 ish.

You know, I'm going to have to check my burner. Our fireplace flame isn't super weak, but it isn't roaring either. I wouldn't be surprised if it's got a little dust in it.

The only other house we really thought about buying was a renovated older home in the Mount Vernon area. It was smaller and had been purchased by a contractor (or investor, I'm not sure) to refurbish and sell. It *looked* fantastic at first glance but the beauty was only skin deep. The home was slab on grade with a detached garage, and the backyard was a swamp. Doors had been replaced, but didn't close properly. The refinished hardwood floors had bubbles in the finish. The wiring in the garage was not at all up to code, so I have to assume the hidden wiring in the house was just as bad.

The thing with this area is that a lot of people simply don't care. They have money to spend, and they spend it. Builders and contractors alike don't need to put in the effort since most people don't care. That's not true of every contractor and builder, just most. Those that do care can afford the high-dollar contractors or do it themselves. You know the old adage, "this is why we can't have nice things."

Build quality has gone down, no doubt. My in-laws each built their home about the same time (late 90's / early 2000's). One of them was a Trafalgar, I think - not sure of the spelling since they're out of business. The build quality is well below the other, which is one of the bigger builders still around.

[CLETUS]

I know I'm a perfectionist, 

 It *looked* fantastic at first glance but the beauty was only skin deep. 

You bought a mass produced "McMansion". I know your second quote is about a different house but in reality, it also includes your house. Those homes aren't built for "perfectionists", they are built 95% of the population that doesn't see any further than some flashy paint, and a trendy kitchen.

[FS7]

You bought a mass produced "McMansion". I know your second quote is about a different house but in reality, it also includes your house. Those homes aren't built for "perfectionists", they are built 95% of the population that doesn't see any further than some flashy paint, and a trendy kitchen.

It's probably higher than 95%.

I knew this going in. I had multiple conversations with the construction manager during the process about their "build standard" and how he knew they were shortcuts. The eye-opening part for me wasn't that builders are lazy and cut corners, but rather the extent to which that happens. People say that old homes have "character" and usually ascribe flaws to something odd the homeowner or their family did. I'm more convinced now they're all just lazy builder artifacts that were never fixed.

The only way I'd really be happy is if I had enough time, money, and land to build a home over several years, doing as much of it myself as possible. Reality doesn't support that, so I've learned to be happy in other ways - at present, that means occasionally bitching about my McMansion and its poor detail work.