Grizzly's prices on some machines going up 25%

[Phil Thien]

True. But we also have min. wages, higher wages in general , unions, benefits, and other operating costs, burdens that Chinese and many Asian producers don't have to worry about.

Anyone who thinks manufacturers will move their production bases back to America because of the trade wars with China and our allies need to think twice.

Simon

And they have currency manipulation, a complete disregard for intellectual property, a communist gov't, and a lack of transparency...

I could care less about a single category like tools (however, anyone that thinks we couldn't produce power tools in this country nearly overnight if need-be is seriously misinformed).

What I care about is stemming the flow of more industry to a country that wants unfettered access to our markets while refusing us same.

I'd also like to add this isn't entirely about trade:  We have Taiwan to worry about, we have China building islands in the sea of China and claiming all sorts of naval and air rights. And let's not forget North Korea, a pawn which will once again re-emerge as a problem child as soon as China feels unleashing the fool serves their purpose.

Also, this isn't entirely about Trump:  He is no doubt being coached by hardline career diplomats that have been ignored for going-on-decades-now.

For every guy acting like Chicken Little over here, there is a hardline communist party member there crapping bricks as they try to keep their economy from collapsing.

Trust me, it is going to be okay.  We need a course correction, and I swear Trump seems to be guided by the Hand of God.

[Handplanesandmore]

Trust me, it is going to be okay.  We need a course correction, and I swear Trump seems to be guided by the Hand of God.

Good luck...and we all need that!

Simon

[Cecil]

And they have currency manipulation, a complete disregard for intellectual property, a communist gov't, and a lack of transparency...

I could care less about a single category like tools (however, anyone that thinks we couldn't produce power tools in this country nearly overnight if need-be is seriously misinformed).

What I care about is stemming the flow of more industry to a country that wants unfettered access to our markets while refusing us same.

I'd also like to add this isn't entirely about trade:  We have Taiwan to worry about, we have China building islands in the sea of China and claiming all sorts of naval and air rights.  And let's not forget North Korea, a pawn which will once again re-emerge as a problem child as soon as China feels unleashing the fool serves their purpose.

Also, this isn't entirely about Trump:  He is no doubt being coached by hardline career diplomats that have been ignored for going-on-decades-now.

For every guy acting like Chicken Little over here, there is a hardline communist party member there crapping bricks as they try to keep their economy from collapsing.

Trust me, it is going to be okay.  We need a course correction, and I swear Trump seems to be guided by the Hand of God.

For years I refused to buy anything made in China.  Eventually I had to go to work naked, so now I buy some Chinese goods.

[Handplanesandmore]

For years I refused to buy anything made in China.  Eventually I had to go to work naked, so now I buy some Chinese goods.

Anyone who knows the secret of living a normal life without using one single product from China, please share it.

In 1990,  China produced less than 3% of global manufacturing output, she now produces almost half of the world’s goods. That is just 30 years or so for her to get there. Its ambitious Made in China 2025 plan, if achieved, will move her to become a leader not known for cheap and fast, but top quality. If her past 30 years is an indication, we won't be talking about us losing jobs or them stealing IP, we will be witnessing her take-over of the world with despair:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/44652064/mad...or-quality

Simon

[Cecil]

Anyone who knows the secret of living a normal life without using one single product from China, please share it.

In 1990,  China produced less than 3% of global manufacturing output, she now produces almost half of the world’s goods. That is just 30 years or so for her to get there. Its ambitious Made in China 2025 plan, if achieved, will move her to become a leader not known for cheap and fast, but top quality. If her past 30 years is an indication, we won't be talking about us losing jobs or them stealing IP, we will be witnessing her take-over of the world with despair:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/44652064/mad...or-quality

Simon

In 1990, there were a lot of goods made in Hong Kong.  In 1997, the UK's 99 year lease ran out, and Hong Kong reverted to China.  At this point, we could screw our friends in Hong Kong, or get into bed with China.

I don't know what Hong Kong's manufacturing output was, so I don't know how much China acquired and how much they grew, but I am sure that most of it was growth.

[Handplanesandmore]

I don't know what Hong Kong's manufacturing output was, so I don't know how much China acquired and how much they grew, but I am sure that most of it was growth.

Interesting question. I Googled and seemed to find that manufacturing is a sun-set thing for HK:

"The livelihood of people in Mainland China has improved. Many people no longer need to farm for a living. In 1987, over a million workers were employed by Hong Kong industrialists (which increased to 10 million as of 2005[37]) in Mainland China.[27] Local governments in China earn money, which are used to improve the infrastructure of China, through land rent and taxes. Therefore, the economy of the Pearl River Delta was boosted alongside the improvement of living standards.[37]

As the manufacturing industry declined, the tertiary industry rose. The service sector continues to prosper to this day. In 1980, the tertiary sector took up only 48.4% of Hong Kong's employment structure.[36] By 2008, 87.1% of all employees worked in the service industry while employee rates of the manufacturing industry dropped to 4.6%.[40] The relocated factories needed support services including shipping, insurance, and above all, finance. Due to more people working in the tertiary sector, Hong Kong's economy grew increasingly reliant on service industries.[41]"

Wiki
Simon

[Admiral]

Anyone who knows the secret of living a normal life without using one single product from China, please share it.

In 1990,  China produced less than 3% of global manufacturing output, she now produces almost half of the world’s goods. That is just 30 years or so for her to get there. Its ambitious Made in China 2025 plan, if achieved, will move her to become a leader not known for cheap and fast, but top quality. If her past 30 years is an indication, we won't be talking about us losing jobs or them stealing IP, we will be witnessing her take-over of the world with despair:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/44652064/mad...or-quality

Simon

Who said that about history, something like those who don't pay attention to it are bound to repeat it....

Listen, like it or not, we now have a global supply chain.  Trying to go backwards is pizzing in the wind.  The US was the workshop of the world in the early to the mid 20th century; in the early part fueled by, amazingly, immigrant labor of all things, and the fact that Europe decimated itself in WWI while we made lots of money, and increased manufacturing capacity, selling war material to England and France, among others.  We showed up in the late stages of the war as a belligerent, and didn't ruin our economy or our country's infrastructure in doing so.  Before WWI we were a "debtor" nation, i.e., owing more to foreign countries than they owed to us.  The war reversed this, well into the 1970s.  After the war we could produce most everything cheaper than the rest of the world, with innovation and hard work - but also because we were separated from the world by two oceans.  And by dint of world events and geography, i.e., WWII, our economic base and manufacturing base was not destroyed as it was in most of the western world, we were the last fully intact western society left standing, so we prospered.  And being fair and good natured, we gave the world the Marshall Plan, to rebuild Europe, establish long standing alliances, and also brought Japan along economically through McArthur's intelligent management of the occupation.  This is history.  But things have changed.

So now it appears that it is China's turn to be the workshop of the world; yeah, they are communists, they view private property (especially intellectual property "IP") as something to be used for the state and the state's interest, they cheat, steal , bribe to get contracts, manipulate currency, and all the other things mentioned above.  But they are not as good as the US in innovation, or services, or educational infrastructure, or a lot of other things.  Getting them in line with norms requires a nuanced approach, not the blunt force approach being taken now (with giveaways, like letting ZTE off the hook); perhaps restricting university admissions of Chinese nationals, preventing US corporations from engaging in joint ventures with companies owned by the state, i.e., "China Inc," or not selling them certain classes of goods.  I'm fully supportive that there has to be a realignment of trade and tariffs, but I am not convinced that those who are in charge have any bloody idea what they are doing, and who are taking a tit for tat approach that is rather amateurish and foolhardy.  And picking fights with Canada?  Madness in my view.

Anyway, look for most things to start increasing in price.  I'm lucky, I'm not in the "acquisition mode" having acquired most everything I need to live life.  There will be domestic repercussions, in cost of manufactured goods (whether made in the US or not) and in job losses, witness GM's recent warning.  I am concerned for the younger people, as I am on the cusp of retirement, and can make that work financially and I'll survive; if I were laid off tomorrow it really wouldn't change my life all that much other than some belt tightening.  But a lot of other people are not as lucky, and could be hurt by all of this.

And so it goes for Grizzly; they are going to do as best they can until this whole situation gets resolved, one way or the other.  I think it was good that Papa gave us the heads up, and I'm sure he will figure out a way to manage his business so that he stays in business.  I wish him the best.

[Handplanesandmore]

Getting them in line with norms requires a nuanced approach, not the blunt force approach being taken now (with giveaways, like letting ZTE off the hook); perhaps restricting university admissions of Chinese nationals, preventing US corporations from engaging in joint ventures with companies owned by the state, i.e., "China Inc," or not selling them certain classes of goods.  I'm fully supportive that there has to be a realignment of trade and tariffs, but I am not convinced that those who are in charge have any bloody idea what they are doing, and who are taking a tit for tat approach that is rather amateurish and foolhardy.  And picking fights with Canada?  Madness in my view.



The strategy of containing China has been tried before many times, including the post 1989 Tienanmen massacre measures, and has proven ineffective. That was almost 30 years ago. Today, no one dares to mention or try it because the global trading has every western country immersed with China. It would work on North Korea, but only with China's concrete action.

Restricting Chinese students hurts too many universities because students are cash cows (they pay double to three times the local tuition fees, plus they bring in spending (rental, food, etc.) for the local economies). But the biggest weakness of this approach is the UK, Canada, New Zealand and Australia will be laughing to the bank if America shuts out the Chinese students.

Joint venture shut-out? Tell this to our car industry and players there will tell you what they think. China is simply too big (we made it big!) for America alone to deal with...but unfortunately, our allies are now only allies in name, because they are hit by the tariffs too. They are being pushed to establish stronger economic ties with China!!! Already, Canada has been urged to plan for not relying on trades with America as its only main trading stream.

Simon

[EricU]

locking out Chinese undergrads is going to hurt, that's for sure.  Lots of mediocre and not so mediocre universities are going to have a big hole in their budget.  Of course, I'm not sure that the xenophobia hasn't started this, I heard from a Saudi student that his country was going to stop sending students.

It's not like there are  a lot of contract manufacturers sitting idle in the U.S.  The people in competitive consumer industries are moving production out of the U.S.  The managers don't want to deal with production, it's a big pain.

[AloneInPhx]

Well, this sucks!  I ordered a jointer in June to avoid the tariff increase.  A couple months delay, and I just got an email that the tariffs will be applied anyways. 

I'll be cancelling my order.  Very frustrated with the back order anyways, and then to have the price changed is disingenuous.