What happened to Wenzolff and Sons?
#76
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by knockknock ([quote='TraditionalT...)
(Yesterday, 12:08 PM)knockknock Wrote: This is how I interpret those instructions:

In the picture, you will notice that the plate is clamped in the vise at the toe. When the folded back is tapped home, it will be pulling on the plate putting it under 'tension' lengthwise, to ensure the plate is straight. If the plate was clamped at the heel and the back tapped home, it would be pushing on the plate putting it under compression lengthwise, which might result in a slight bow in the plate.

I think that is 'xactly how Mark wants you to interpret it.

Let's step back and try to understand this.

Metal does have a certain amount on tension that it can create, and is given a tensile strength for a specific piece of material. However you need so much force to reach such points that metal would actually stretch. Metal does stretch at some point, just before it breaks...it would probably take over 100,000 psi to reach that point where a saw plate could actually start to move.

Think of a bow saw, the frame is actually applying tension to keep the blade straight/flat. This doesn't happen with a folded back in any way, because it will just slip off when any amount of force is placed on either the plate or back at which point they will move. Ron Bontz mentioned that he experimented with creating a saw with a threaded rod, and if I understood him correctly this would use the rod to create tension, to keep the plate straight/flat. I don't know the details of what Ron found out, but the fact that Ron doesn't use this method to assemble his saws today pretty much tells us that there was no advantage found. If Ron reads this, please correct me if I'm wrong because we didn't discuss this very much.

A backsaw doesn't have a way to hold tension along the length of the plate. The back does apply tension across the thickness of the plate, so if a plate was warped and/or bowed it could provide that tension to hold it flat up near the top of the plate, where the back is...but how often do you see a damaged saw plate like that? it is hard for the back to transfer tension through the plate, vertically, to the tooth line, so I have the opinion that a back is limited to what it can flatten out at the tooth line where it is primarily needed. The primary function is to provide the stiffness to hold the plate while you saw.

Now think about the slotted back. The back holds the plate securely, the plate can't actually move. This is true if the back is crimped onto the plate, most sawmakers squeeze the back with a vise. I do that and I have talked to others that do just to be safe. Most use some type of Loctite, I use blue as you can heat it and separate the back from the plate in the worst case. However, there is far less chance that you would need to do that, since the back and plate don't move as they do with a folded back. You drop the saw off the bench accidentally, no problem. Nothing to "retension". This really means very little at the end of the day, as you can reset the folded back on a saw and that is what has been done since the folded back has been used on saws. Smirk However if it works for you, the slotted back saves some of that maintenance.

I know that I can take a ball peen and make the tooth line irregular where the back won't have any effect on it. The same can be done with both a slotted or folded back. At that point there's a problem with the plate, period. This is a pretty rare occurrence, especially with modern backsaws. But this is where the most damage could be done to a plate...and the folded back will not be able to help that any better than a slotted back. That is a catastrophic failure, IMO. Most people take pretty good care of their backsaws, some worship dovetails saws like some type of spiritual figure...and there are more dovetail saws today than ever, often one of the first saws anyone buys...Rolleyes This is to say this is probably not a problem even if you ruin a saw, get another one. Hang the damaged one on the wall and wear it like a badge of honor...

This long winded post is to say, there is nothing wrong with a folded back. It just requires a bit more maintenance if the back moves. Some people just won't like the modern look of a slotted back, placing more emphasis on the more traditional folded back. Some irony that my company is Traditional Toolworks yet I advocate the non-traditional method...but life is full of ironies.  Smile But this long winded post was also to say, don't believe everything you read on the Internet, Abe Lincoln knew that...

Cheers,
Alan - I have always welcomed this dialog on folded vs. slotted back, there just seems a lot of FUD in the air around this topic. Tension is a poor descriptor to use, and that goes for the physical procedure of flattening out a blade with some dings in it. No matter what they call it, you will never get a piece of metal back to original condition by wacking it with a ball peen on an anvil, just keep that in mind. Certainly don't try to tension your testicles, that $#!T can hurt! Laugh
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#77
  Re: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Barry Johnson (Just curious really....)
So what has happened to Mike Wenzloff?
Waiting to grow up beyond being just a member
http://www.metaltech-pm.com
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#78
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by TraditionalToolworks ([quote='AHill' pid='...)
(Yesterday, 11:00 PM)TraditionalToolworks Wrote: That doesn't help the craft, and that's certainly not the only reason I don't care for Bob's [Smalser] style. I have met other people more willing to share that weren't so bitter about things, people that enjoyed helping people to do something without having to talk down to them.


Cheers,
Alan

Usually, when Smalser went crazy was when some newbie asserted he knew more about the craft than Bob.  I'm not excusing his approach to dressing down the newbie.  There are ways to be instructive and helpful without being disrespectful.  Derek Cohen is one good example of that.  I don't recall where Bob ever came across as saying "my way is the only right way," which happens every once-in-awhile on this (and other) forums.
Still Learning,

Allan Hill
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#79
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by TraditionalToolworks ([quote='knockknock' ...)
It is quite helpful when the back puts tension on the plate at the tooth line
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#80
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Tony Z (So what has happened...)
(10 hours ago)Tony Z Wrote: So what has happened to Mike Wenzloff?

Ditto
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