Specialty plywood / ordering online / substituting species

[FS7]

I'm building my current piece out of ribbon sapele as the primary wood. There are some accents in the top, and while I haven't decided what the rest will be I think I am going to use almost all sapele.

The back and bottom (and likely the mostly hidden internal vertical panels) will be plywood. The problem is finding something that matches.

Sapele plywood exists, and technically it's an option. The prices for shipping a sheet of plywood are roughly the same as the sheet itself, which is already insane. I'm not spending $300 for one sheet of plywood. Other more reasonable shipping is available, but only if you buy five sheets or more. I'm not sure if mix and match is available, which would make it potentially useful, but I certainly don't need five sheets of sapele plywood. The point is it seems like you can't really buy plywood online easily, which does make sense.

Mahogany is probably an acceptable alternative. It is a bit lighter, but the grain is quiet and the acceptance (danish oil in this case) should be similar. Chatoyance is very mild, but that's fine for the back and bottom. That's available, but also expensive ($170 a sheet from my local supplier). I could probably shop around more, but that might be the best option.

I do have walnut on hand, and it's less expensive also. Problem is, it's considerably darker than sapele. They're both "brown," but not really anything alike. I also used walnut plywood for part of my daughter's crib and it gets dark pretty quick with danish oil.

What do you normally do in this situation? I have not tried veneering yet, and I know that's an obvious answer. However, it is also not that cheap (looks like $60+ for a 4x8 sheet), plus substrate material and time. Solid wood is technically an option, but then you have way too much expansion to consider (in my opinion, anyway).

[jteneyck]

Your situation is exactly why I learned to make shop sawn veneer and glue it onto MDF or Baltic birch plywood to make whatever I need.  For small quantities you don't need a monster bandsaw either; I sliced all the veneer I needed for several projects on my 14" Delta with riser block using a 1/2" x 3 tpi blade.  If you don't have a drum sander and vacuum bag setup then the challenge is greater, but it can still be done.  


If that sounds too daunting then buy commercial veneer.  FWIW, $60 for a 4x8 sheet of commercial veneer is dirt cheap.  Quarter sawn Sapele veneer from Certainly Wood runs $1.25 - 2.00/ sq ft.  In any case, making your own veneered panels certainly adds time to a project but you can make exactly what you want and everything will match.  I remember some of the pieces you've posted here and know that you are very particular and detail oriented.  You strike me as just the kind of person who would want to do this.    


John

[Cooler]

ML Condon, our local specialty plywood supplier will cut sheets to fit in my car.  I suppose that they could cut them to size to ship by UPS if that is OK for your project.  

I don't know if Condon carries sapele plywood.  Perhaps your vendor can cut to ship by UPS.

[FS7]

Your situation is exactly why I learned to make shop sawn veneer and glue it onto MDF or Baltic birch plywood to make whatever I need.  For small quantities you don't need a monster bandsaw either; I sliced all the veneer I needed for several projects on my 14" Delta with riser block using a 1/2" x 3 tpi blade.  If you don't have a drum sander and vacuum bag setup then the challenge is greater, but it can still be done.  


If that sounds too daunting then buy commercial veneer.  FWIW, $60 for a 4x8 sheet of commercial veneer is dirt cheap.  Quarter sawn Sapele veneer from Certainly Wood runs $1.25 - 2.00/ sq ft.  In any case, making your own veneered panels certainly adds time to a project but you can make exactly what you want and everything will match.  I remember some of the pieces you've posted here and know that you are very particular and detail oriented.  You strike me as just the kind of person who would want to do this.    


John

Given the time, I'll do this eventually. My bandsaw skills are lacking (or possibly my bandsaw tuning skills are lacking), and I have no vacuum bag or drum sander. Yet, anyway. Given that my second child is on the way and I am already limited in shop time, that may have to wait if I ever want to finish a project. I have had designs on starting out small - there is a small veneer sample pack sitting in the shop waiting for a box top or two.

The commercial veneer looks great and honestly even at $100 (veneer plus substrate) it isn't at all bad for how it looks. It certainly seems as though it's not a trivial undertaking, at least for a larger panel (the two big ones I need are about 18" x 60" and 28" x 60"). For a price, some suppliers will add an adhesive backing, but despite its being billed as "peel and stick" it doesn't exactly seem that way. There are entire books on veneering, and while I always try to do at least one new thing on a project (this time it was breadboard ends using the Domino only) it will be a pretty big step for me to get a handle on veneering.

Cooler, I don't have a problem hauling (full size truck) - it's a lack of availability. I am also not sure if any vendors offer cutting to get into the standard shipping limits, but that would be helpful. Most that I've seen say they won't even do half sheets. It seems rather odd as it would open up markets (you can sell more plywood along with your cutting services). Then again, maybe it's simply not worth it. I don't know what the limit is on size for UPS shipping, but it has to be around there. I am almost positive you can ship certain doors via UPS, and those are usually 32" x 80" or 36" x 80" excluding packaging.

[Gary G™]

Have you asked any of your local cabinet shops?
When I needed black cherry, the local cabinet shop owner added it to his regular order.
When I need 3/4” maple cabinet grade ply, another local cabinet shop sold me some.

[jasfrank]

I can see why wholesalers or even retailers wouldn't care to sell half sheets of high dollar plywood. A typical hardwood dealer who carries plywood will usually have a minimum of 12 different species  with 3 or so thicknesses in each plus the different constructions such as mdf or veneer core..  All their plywood comes in bundles by species and thickness. So warehouse space is usually pretty full and organized. They really don't want to have more bundles of odd sizes to keep track of. And then consider how many different species and thicknesses there are, pretty soon it'd be hard to find anything. Then to make matters worse, every time a unit is shuffled to find whatever size or grain pattern etc. that someone may want, it's highly likely some sheets will get scratched.
  That said, I used to buy and use hardwood plywood, but haven't in quite a few years, as I find it cheaper and easier to just use solid wood in panel type construction. Sometimes raised, sometimes shaker style. The grain and the finish always match the face that way.
  When I used to use plywood I would often use 1/4" or even less thickness if available and laminate it to the box side.

[packerguy®]

If its the back/bottom/hidden internals, cant you use a secondary wood (plywood like a birch ply) and if you have to attach a solid piece (like 1/4" thick) to wrap the edges where they would be visible to the front?

No way I would pay a premium for special ply, for internals and the back and bottom. 

If you are stuck on it matching, why not just make it out of solid stock....solid ribbon sapele would be cheaper than the ply and its how they did things for hundreds of years.....

[FS7]

I haven't asked cabinet shops, though that seems like it might make some sense if they used the species for cabinet boxes. That would certainly leave them some partial sheets. I don't know if sapele is used for cabinets around here or even if sapele plywood would be used for the carcasses (it seems unlikely). My thought with cutting some things to size would be that you'd buy the whole sheet and have it shipped (or as much of it as possible), with the rest going into the scrap pile rather than being organized and saved for resale. Novel idea, but probably not that practical.

Using birch and staining it is an idea. When I work with pine I use birch or maple ply and stain it, since the grain is very quiet. I will probably experiment if I can find another stash of sapele like I did, though finding 100 board feet of quartersawn sapele for $4 is not something I run into every day. I found mahogany plywood for a decent price (one sheet) so I'll see how that works out this time. I may need to stain it anyway, which is not ideal, but I can probably get away with tinted danish oil rather than stain (which would keep the finish the same).

When I started making things for real about 15 years ago I used a lot of solid wood panels. Having few tools, no shop, and limited money, I used a lot of laminated pine panels from the big box stores. Pine doesn't move much, so this wasn't a problem, and it looked uniform. When I used plywood, I really appreciated the strength and stability of it as well as the uniformity. I don't think it shows very well, but I have edged it both with solid wood (roughly 1x stock) and edge banding. My main desk is maple plywood with solid 1x maple edging. That would work here too, but more of the wood would be visible. Edging isn't necessary since all edges will be covered. The reason I want something matching is that the middle third (roughly) of the piece will be visible - the bottom, the shelf, half of the internal verticals, and even some of the back. I'm probably being picky, and matching plywood would be easiest. 

Solid wood is an option and comparable in price, though not in terms of work. With a 13" planer and no drum sander getting those panels as flat as plywood takes forever with an ROS. I also have a hard time using my "good" lumber for something like that. The outside panels will be raised panel construction as they will be highly visible. Hidden structural pieces (under the bottom, the cross members that the top attach to) are usually unfinished pine. 

I think veneering is ultimately the way to go, either using 1/4" or thinner sheets or actual veneer to make my own panels.

[jteneyck]

I think veneering is ultimately the way to go, either using 1/4" or thinner sheets or actual veneer to make my own panels.

Ultimately, that's where you will likely end up, but in the meantime don't discount commercial veneer, even the stuff with PSA on the back.  I used it in my kitchen to cover a small area and it's stayed put for 22 years.  I used it to recover the faceframes in another kitchen (a rehab job) and it's been fine for about 6 years.  

When you do get around to sawing your own veneer don't go thicker than 1/8" for interior work.  That's about the limit of where veneer starts to behave like solid wood, with all of it's seasonal expansion/contraction issues.  I'm not saying it can't be done, and it is done on composite exterior doors, of which I've made a couple, but there's just no benefit for interior work.  With a properly set up bandsaw and resaw blade you should be able to slice veneer less than 1/8" that is smooth enough to glue down directly to your substrate.  When in doubt use epoxy because it will fill in any gaps.  Once it's glued down you can run smaller panels through your planer to make the show side dead flat and smooth.  On larger panels use a hand plane or belt and/or ROS.   

John