Kerfing chisel for dozuki?

[DaveParkis]

When I was taught how to do half blinds, the instructor specifically told us to buy putty knives and put an edge on them, stand them in the need and coax them down

[adamcherubini]

Some 18th c furniture makers extended the pin saw cuts past the baseline to enable them to saw out a bit more of their pins. When I do this, I use the heel of my saw to “dig” out the pins’ corners a bit. So that’s not a straight saw cut thru the thickness. You can saw quite a bit of that material out this way. I never beat in a scraper, but I’m not against the idea. With a western saw, you can just man up and grip the whole blade and use the toe teeth to dig a corner out (when the handle prevents you from using the heel teeth. When I made saws, I cut “special teeth” at both ends of the saw for this.

Only other suggestion I have is to abandon your dozuki and buy a western dovetail saw. Japanese tools make a lot of sense for Japanese work. But so few of the people I know who use them, use them as they were intended.

No such thing as a bad tool. But our expectations, woods, how we hold our tools and work pieces, how we stand, typically all run counter to traditional Japanese practices. These tools, all tools, weren’t chosen from a woodworking catalog like they are today. They were designed and optimized for a suite of user requirements, industrial capabilities etc that were pretty specific. As we depart from the techniques and materials our tools were designed for, difficulties and inefficiencies start popping up.

Sorry if I just man-splained you guys.

[wmickley]

If you watch a Japanese craftsman making this joint, he will use just saw and chisel. We do the same thing in our tradition. There is no need for a "Kerfing chisel" at all. The main thing is learning how to use a chisel.

[Derek Cohen]

If you watch a Japanese craftsman making this joint, he will use just saw and chisel. We do the same thing in our tradition. There is no need for a "Kerfing chisel" at all. The main thing is learning how to use a chisel.

I don't think that Tage Frid got your memo, Warren 


Regards from Perth

Derek

[RonB1957]

I don't think that Tage Frid got your memo, Warren 


Regards from Perth

Derek

    What is the plate thickness of that Duzuki?? I will look into possibly a 0.012" version in the near future, but it would have to be smaller in height than the others.
1) I believe Chuck Bender makes his half blinds by over cutting the saw kerf that way, as well. I have a couple of his videos.
2) To my knowledge Tage Frid was the first to "publish" the scraper card trick, but I seriously doubt he was the first to do it. I doubt Derek was the first to put a handle on one as well. ( No offense, Derek ) Wayyyyy to many master craftsman over the years have been "making due with what they have". Advice I was given 45+ years ago. We just only read/ hear about a very small few that are published, or post everything on the internet.
3) With respect to Warren's method or Adam's method. I actually made some "kerf tools" with 20 ppi teeth filed rip, ( reversed teeth ), for the sole purpose of digging out the excess wood. Tap down, pull out, etc.. You can only compress wood so much before it begins to push sideways and possibly splitting the wood. Cocobolo, Pink Ivory, etc. It is a pain to make them and sharpen them, however.
       Ultimately, old craftsman will have methods they have used for a long time and new craftsman will adopt the methods they are exposed to and/or are influenced to use by those old craftsman. Sometimes choosing to modify those methods to suite. Knowledge is the ultimate recyclable resource.
OK. Back to work.
Take care,
Ron

[adamcherubini]

  I actually made some "kerf tools" with 20 ppi teeth filed rip, ( reversed teeth ), for the sole purpose of digging out the excess wood.

I just use my DT saw backwards for this. And I think saws were designed to allow this. (handle has to be clear of the toothed edge +++ Note some modern saws are not built like this.)

Regarding something else you wrote but I didn't quote - I get your meaning and don't feel strongly about right or wrong ways to work wood. But I think we failed to maintain our woodworking traditions. And Americans in particular, have it in our DNA to try to re-invent and improve absolutely everything. Even things we don't fully understand. And that can lead to these peculiar situations.

Even if someone like myself or Warren can describe how something was done successfully for the last 200 years, at least half the people listening or reading are thinking of ways they can do it better (note: possibly having never done it themselves). From a European/Old World perspective, this feels like intellectual arrogance. BTW, I think this is a misperception of us; We DO try to improve stuff, but it doesn't come from arrogance.

I recall asking Frank Klaus years ago about whether he put a half pin or a half tail at the bottom of his drawer fronts. Can't remember the answer. I think it was half tail. When I asked him why, I was expecting a thoughtful answer about hiding drawer bottom grooves, etc etc. Instead his answer was "because that's the way you do it". I recall being put off by his terse response to my "enlightened" question. Now I understand I was hearing the voice of an apprentice trained master craftsman. Were we able to travel back 200 years and ask a similar question to an 18th c master, I suspect we would get the exact same answer.

Now when I try to tell that story, someone tells me the story of the grandmother who insisted the end of the ham had to be sawn off before it was cooked (not knowing it was because her mother's oven was too short to cook a whole ham leg). That's a good story but maybe we've taken it too much to heart????? OK, I guess I do feel strongly that its better to learn whatever you are learning the old fashioned way first. Know the history and take advantage of that. Innovate only after you have mastered that skill.

Not many people understand this, but that's why I wore puffy shirts for so long. It wasn't about what museum I worked in. It was a way to tell people that I was separating what I felt was done traditionally, from what I personally thought as a modern semi pro woodworker. In my opinion, this is a super important conversation to have with woodworkers.

[AaronR]

Somewhere, sometime, in the fullness of YouTube, I saw a video of a professional japanese woodworker using a kerf extender.  I agree most videos of them don't show this, but that's not to say they're never used.

[wmickley]

I don't think that Tage Frid got your memo, Warren 


Regards from Perth

Derek

My friend Henry, who passed away a few years ago, was a professional machinist and an amateur woodworker. Henry always seemed to know more of the great woodworkers in our area than I did. He would meet someone at a woodworking show, pick up a card, and visit their shop. And he patronized woodworkers too; one time I thought of eight woodworkers represented in his modest house. Instead of buying thousands worth of planes or chisels he bought furniture; you did not mind spending time with Henry.

One day Henry was excited to get a ticket to see a Tage Frid exhibition in Washington. I will never forget what he said afterwards: "Warren, I was never so disgusted in all my life. Some of those pieces must have had a whole can of filler in them."

I have another customer who studied furniture making at Rhode Island School of Design (four year program), where Frid taught. He says Frid was versed in industrial woodworking, not handwork.

[Timberwolf]

I've been cutting half blind dovetails lately. It would be a lot easier if the saw kerf went all the way down, like with what Derek calls his "kerfing chisel." Dozukis are made of thin gauge metal, though, and even my card scrapers are too fat too fit. Any suggestions?

...........
Any suggestions?

Try metalworking "slitting saw blades"......Available in many diameters, extremely thin sizes and High Speed Steel..You can sometimes find them at flea markets and estate sales for peanuts..

[Derek Cohen]

My friend Henry, who passed away a few years ago, was a professional machinist and an amateur woodworker. Henry always seemed to know more of the great woodworkers in our area than I did. He would meet someone at a woodworking show, pick up a card, and visit their shop. And he patronized woodworkers too; one time I thought of eight woodworkers represented in his modest house. Instead of buying thousands worth of planes or chisels he bought furniture; you did not mind spending time with Henry.

One day Henry was excited to get a ticket to see a Tage Frid exhibition in Washington. I will never forget what he said afterwards: "Warren, I was never so disgusted in all my life. Some of those pieces must have had a whole can of filler in them."

I have another customer who studied furniture making at Rhode Island School of Design (four year program), where Frid taught. He says Frid was versed in industrial woodworking, not handwork.

Later career

Frid headed the program in woodworking of the School for American Craftsmen (SAC) in Alfred, New York; later moving with this program to Rochester Institute of Technology.[3][4] In 1962 he became professor of Woodworking and Furniture Design at the Rhode Island School of Design (RISD), remaining until 1985.
When teaching, he emphasized a craftsman's need to learn all the available tools and methods one could use to complete a given task. Thus, the person can work in any shop situation and produce the same quality. Frid's students include noted American studio furniture makers such as Hank Gilpin, Jere Osgood, Alphonse Mattia, William Keyser, John Dunnigan, and Rosanne Somerson.
He was an editor of Fine Woodworking magazine from its inception in 1975 to his death.[2]
In 2001, Tage Frid was honored by The Furniture Society with its Award of Distinction. The Permanent collection of the Museum of Fine Arts, Bostonowns some of his designs, most of which represent the Danish modern style.

Link: https://www.revolvy.com/page/Tage-Frid?


Well Warren, I have no intimate knowledge of Tage Frid, other than watching a dovetailing video he made. On one hand we have the account of your friend, whom you hold in high esteem. On the other, we have the views of the American public, who hold Tage Frid in high esteem.

Regards from Perth

Derek