Japanese saws
#11
  
Looking for a recommendation on a set of Japanese pull saws.
Would like to buy. A dozuki, a flush cut, and one with a back (not sure of the name)
Looking to spend ~$100.00
Any recommendations?
Thanks
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#12
  Re: Japanese saws by johndi (Looking for a recomm...)
(10-12-2018, 07:17 AM)johndi Wrote: Looking for a recommendation on a set of Japanese pull saws.
Would like to buy. A dozuki, a flush cut, and one with a back (not sure of the name)
Looking to spend ~$100.00
Any recommendations?
Thanks
Yeah- skip it and buy western saws instead.

There are certain ancient rules about saws that many modern woodworkers don't know and frequently violate. Its pretty hard to saw accurately if you can't see the cut. That's one. Western saws cut on the side of their handles.  Pull saws cut on the side opposite their handles. To control a line you must see the cut as it happens.

Sometimes, Japanese workmen will saw off a board and won't be able to see the cut.  They can do that through long experience. I can saw with my eyes closed and saw reasonable miters free hand.  But that doesn't help anyone do it themselves. That's not a technique anyone new to sawing should mimic.

Only buy Japanese saws if you are willing to use Japanese postures and work holding techniques. In general, I would summarize their sawing technique thusly: Hands under, eyes over. If you invest in the benches, kneeling, sitting, and muscle memory, bending stooping, choose Japanese planes too and do it right.  Otherwise, the mixture hampers woodworkers. Western benches were optimized over centuries for pushed tools and standing workmen.

One more tip: One thing I did right early on, was to recognize that I'm all thumbs and needed all the help I could get.  I gripped all of my tools the exact same way.  I used every saw the exact same way.  I consequently developed muscles, and muscle memory that helped me in ways I couldn't possibly have conceived of when I started. I've written about this in many different ways, but generally called it the "cooperative workshop". The concept is, everything you do helps everything else you do. Also, that the tools help each other, as in the medieval poem: 

The broad axe said without a miss, he said "the plane my brother is. We two shall cleanse and make full plain" 


Nothing against Japanese tools. I just think you really are better off choosing a style of woodworking and sticking with it. Don't mix and match.
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#13
  Re: Japanese saws by johndi (Looking for a recomm...)
(10-12-2018, 07:17 AM)johndi Wrote: Looking for a recommendation on a set of Japanese pull saws.
Would like to buy. A dozuki, a flush cut, and one with a back (not sure of the name)
Looking to spend ~$100.00
Any recommendations?
Thanks
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
All saws get dull with use...Western saws can be sharpened by the user...Japanese saws are almost impossible to sharpen..I once bought an expensive file to sharpen a saw I had and the teeth were so hard that it ruined the file and never sharpened a single tooth. I still like Jap saws, but don't pay much money for them..I consider them to be "throw-aways".... Crazy
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Jack Edgar, Sgt. USMC Korea 51/52
Get off my lawn ! Upset





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#14
  Re: RE: Japanese saws by Timberwolf ([quote='johndi' pid=...)
(10-12-2018, 11:48 AM)Timberwolf Wrote: ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
All saws get dull with use...Western saws can be sharpened by the user...Japanese saws are almost impossible to sharpen..I once bought an expensive file to sharpen a saw I had and the teeth were so hard that it ruined the file and never sharpened a single tooth. I still like Jap saws, but don't pay much money for them..I consider them to be "throw-aways".... Crazy

I guess I shouldn't try to talk a fellow woodworker out of anything. I had Zeta saws, sometimes called Z saws.  They have a blade with a kind of hook that snaps into a tang in the handle. The blades are truly disposable. Its true the teeth are so hard, they can't be filed (and the saw plates are super thin). On the flip side, they remain usable for a l-o-n-g time.

I think what you want is a dozuki and a few kataba(s).  The problem I ran into was ripping.  I never really got the hang of ripping stock with Japanese saws.  I may have had the wrong saw.  If you plan to use your saws really just for joinery, you may not need a dedicated or special rip saw (and I'm not talking teeth, I'm talking about the whole saw). If you want to work by hand, you need to figure out how you might rip a 2X12" X 8' for example, with a Japanese saw.  There are special saws for this and special techniques.  Most of the youtube videos don't show this operation. I guess most woodworkers with sense, regardless of where they live, do these sorts of operations with a power tool. The Schwarz named these sensible folks "hybrid woodworkers" and they have tripped me up for years. Hybrid woodworkers love to talk about their hand tools. I know they aren't trying to be deceptive, but many times I've been led to believe they do more with their hand tools than they really do.

Just a personal story in case anyone cares:
Roy Underhill's show wasn't available in my area. And when I started woodworking, it wasn't available online either. I had his books and that was it.  I worked essentially in isolation for probably 6 years before I saw anyone who worked like I did.  It was a Colonial Williamsburg woodworking conference when I first saw a familiar woodworking operation. Mack Headley was simply planning a board. I'll never forget it. It was an emotional experience for me. I had arrived at the exact technique he was using. I had read everything I could about planes and work benches and found the advice I received simply didn't work for me. I later came to meet many of the authors of the books and articles I had read and understood why. They just weren't doing the work I was doing.

Today, there are countless youtubers demonstrating pretty good hand tool techniques. That's awesome. But there are still some hybrid woodworkers talking and writing about hand tools that they use in a pretty limited way. Its really important to learn what/where those limits are. I would ask how people with Japanese saws rip construction lumber.  Or how they rip 1/2" off the edge of a 6' long cherry board. How do they support that board? What do their saw horses look like? How do they clear saw dust from pretty fine toothed blades. Clearing dust is a big issue for saws.

Hope this was worth the read

Adam
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#15
  Re: Japanese saws by johndi (Looking for a recomm...)
I have several Japanese saws that were a solution to my lack of skill in sharpening a western saw. They were also easier on my growing arthritic shoulders. I don't think they are sold in sets.

All mine are ryoba, all with impulse hardened teeth; a throw away tool. Most are unusable because I bought sight unseen and Japanese have convoluted means for sizing and purposing saws besides the typical western nightmare. My first came from a hardware store, and a couple years ago I tracked down blades for it thinking they would last many years. My last blade is wearing out on the cc side and I am training to use the rip blades for the same purpose. Those saws work OK for general carpentry. I worry though, in ten years where will blades be found? A brand new blade will unzip teeth just as fast as a dull blade on a buried nail or hard chip. Unzip, as in entire pieces of teeth sprinkle down with the last of the sawdust. When you buy that new saw include three replacement blades. Technically, I would include six--you need them. Where is the price point now compared to Bad Axe. 

I have recently grown to reconsider my handsaw priorities. A pull saw is compact and, I surmise, one works for two western saws in the casual woodcutter's arsenal.  But, I like Adam's explanation and observations. Besides, Wilbur isn't here for a rebuttal.
Bruce
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#16
  Re: Japanese saws by johndi (Looking for a recomm...)
I'll offer a rebuttal. I have several Japanese saws and I use them interchangeably with my western saws. I like them a lot, especially for very delicate, precise cuts. I don't have any problem seeing my cut line and I find I can follow a line with them just as easily as I can with my western saws. I love the thin plate and very narrow kerf. I also love the fact that they cut with the plate in tension so I don't have to worry about buckling the blade (not really a problem with my western saws now, but it used to be when I was learning). I don't do much ripping by hand, but, on a whim, I bought a big (fairly expensive) ryoba with big ripping teeth. It works as advertised. Once the kerf is established, it eats up the cut own thick stock and follows the line very well. I'm a hobbyist, so I don't use my saws all day every day. I've had my Japanese saws for a number of years and I take good care of them. I've not had one require sharpening so far.
My $.02.

Hank
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#17
  Re: Japanese saws by johndi (Looking for a recomm...)
I like mine, too, Hank. A lot! My favorite is about 15, probably 20 years old. And, I don't look forward to being weaned away. However, disposable pull saws come with built-in liabilities that conflict with a sustainable philosophy, among other issues. 

The OP would do well to shop Lee Valley for pull saws. I think those tools that reach the permanent catalog will live a long, supported (replacement blades) life.  My favorite general purpose ryoba (two sided, cut for CC and rip) is a Vaughan "Bear Saw", with a blade nearly 10 inches length and CC teeth at about 1/32" spacing. It's a bit slow in carpentry use, on Doug Fir, and perfect for Western Cedar where the rip teeth can perform. It works well on medium hardwoods. I have western back saws that are easier and cleaner for bench joinery. 

I harp about one saw, but the handles (even the whole saw) is replaceable. However, weight, balance, feel, and type of filing play as big a role in comfort and ease of use as any western hand tool. The aspect of a disposable tool conflicts with our built-in preference for the familiar. I'd rather build rapport with a permanent tool.
Bruce
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#18
  Re: Japanese saws by johndi (Looking for a recomm...)
Japanese saws can cut on the handle side of the line like a western saw. Look at Japanese joinery and you can see how wonderful these saws can be in use.

Andy
I am quickly realizing that I have NO natural talent... But I am trying to fake it.

http://www.creeativewoodworking.net
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#19
  Re: Japanese saws by johndi (Looking for a recomm...)
GO TO HARBOR FREIGHT AND LOOK AT THE

Portland Saw 67058 10" Japanese Style Double-Edge Saw
10 In. Japanese Style Double-Edge Saw

TRY IT AND SEE IF YOU LIKE IT BEFORE INVESTING IN A MORE EXPENSIVE ONE.
George

if it ain't broke, you're not tryin'
Quando omni flunkus, moritati.
Red Green

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#20
  Re: RE: Japanese saws by GeorgeV (GO TO HARBOR FREIGHT...)
John,  I have used Japanese saws for a long time, and greatly prefer them to Western - and I have used some new high end Western saws.

I think LV is a good suggestion.  Here is a regular Dozuki - for about $60  http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.as...42898&ap=1     The standard grade Ryoba is about $50  http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.as...42896&ap=1   You can't go wrong with LV.   You can probably get better value if you contact Stu, but you will have to wait for shipping from Japan, which can take a long time.     Here is his general purpose Ryoba  http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/inde...18_503_437    In general, the longer the blade, the more coarse the cut.  I use 240 mm, but I don't do a lot of ripping.

The main thing with Japanese saws, is that you work opposite of Western.  If you are going to crosscut, you start with a pull cut on the far side of the board, and once that is established, you slowly lower the saw into the board as you cut, bringing the kerf towards you.  Since you are cutting on the pull cut, in tension, as long as the back of the blade is in the right location, the cut will stay straight.  ( The shortest distance between two points is a straight line ).   If you are ripping cheeks on a tenon, you start the same way, though once the top of the cheek kerf is established, you pivot to cut from the top of the cut to the bottom on the face, then cut to connect the triangle, then reverse the board and repeat.  It sounds lengthy, but in general, Japanese saws cut very quickly, and since the blade is thinner, it involves less effort.  In fact, you need to keep a light touch on the handle as well.     

This is a short video that shows, IMO, exactly how not to do it.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G2EmOkxrpQ  Since he starts on the near side, the saw is flexing as it extends the kerf.   I didn't watch all of this video,  but it the first one of about 6 that I checked that actually showed the correct procedure, IMO   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPSOfa3wMiE



Good luck and if you have questions,  post back here.
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