Natural gas vented fireplace insert - recommendations?
#11
Hi All - in the North Carolina Piedmont, we have power outages several times a year typically for hours or a day or two - recently we had a 2-day outage and I obtained an estimate for a 'house generator' - used our local plumbing/HVAC maintenance company - they gave me a free estimate on a 22 kW Generac natural gas generator which was over $12,000 (of course includes installation, gas/electric hookup, and switching panel in the basement) - we are in our early 70s and not sure how much longer we will be in that house, especially if illness hits one of us so hard for me to justify spending that much money for basically the next occupants of the house.

So another thought (been watching a LOT of 'Ask This Old House') would be a vented (both combustion & exhaust via chimney vents) natural gas fireplace insert that would provide some heat to the house in a power outage - I would appreciate any comments on brands/models that might fit my needs, and of course I would need to find a reliable company for the installation.  Thanks for any help.  Dave
Piedmont North Carolina
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#12
We live in a rural area.  Without backup power, we lose water immediately, and the house will gradually lose heat.  I'll respond on two separate points.

First:  I'd advise you to get a second cost estimate for the generator.  I am under contract now to replace our manually switched 7KW generator with a new 22KW generator.  The setup includes the generator, automated switch, battery, cold weather kit, and installation labor with reconfiguring the electric panel as needed.  The quote for all of it is about $7500.  Truth in advertising:  the propane fuel line is already run to the installation site, but surely that  isn't a $4K cost upper.

Second:  Fireplaces.  We have two propane-fueled fireplaces.  They are Heatilator brand units rated at an output of about 7K BTU.  They are only about 50% efficient, and they require propane inputs of at least 15K BTUs per hour.  The units have a standing pilot ignition, and so they will work when the power is out.  But the electronic ignition models require an electrical power source to fire up.  If you go this way, make sure they will operate when the power is out.

Similarly, these gas fireplaces are a much better heat source when they have an operating fan to disperse the heat to make a real difference in the room.  Those fans won't operate without electricity.

I really can't talk to the cost of retrofitting an existing conventional wood fireplace with a gas insert.

Last winter, I checked into replacing our fireplaces with better units.  These Heatilator units have been a maintenance money pit; we've spent about $1200 in service calls and parts over the past four winters to keep them operating.  I wanted units that would fit in the same framing that already exists and would have an output of 15K BTUs or more.  I was quoted a unit cost of about $4500, and then installation would be on top of that.  Much better for us all around to go after a better backup power generator to keep our heat pump and associated aux propane burner going.  The backup power also keeps our well pump going, along with lights, fridge, cooktop, etc.  

Bottom line:  When we first moved in here, I viewed the fireplaces as the alternate heat source in a power outage.  A couple of 3-4 hour outages convinced me that they would help only for a few hours.  They just don't put out enough heat to keep up, and I had a minor amount of backup power to push the fans in the units.  I ended up eventually improving the backup power source.

Good luck.
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#13
(10-31-2018, 07:51 PM)WxMan Wrote: We live in a rural area.  Without backup power, we lose water immediately, and the house will gradually lose heat.  I'll respond on two separate points.

First:  I'd advise you to get a second cost estimate for the generator.  I am under contract now to replace our manually switched 7KW generator with a new 22KW generator.  The setup includes the generator, automated switch, battery, cold weather kit, and installation labor with reconfiguring the electric panel as needed.  The quote for all of it is about $7500.  Truth in advertising:  the propane fuel line is already run to the installation site, but surely that  isn't a $4K cost upper.

I am also in a rural area, with the same circumstances as WxMan. I also installed the 22KW Generac (actually mine has the Honeywell label, the exact same thing), though mine ran about $8K. Most definitely get another quote (or 2) and see if a Kohler dealer is around to ask for a quotw. Our house has 2 gas fireplaces. Apparently the original owners choose to use a ground source heat pump with these fireplaces to supplement the heat. My observations are also much the same as above. You need to run the fans to get heat from them. Even then, they are no efficient at all, and while ours are on a thermostat and will hold the room to a set temp, they consume a lot of fuel to do so. BTW, these are Heat N Glow brand, and we haven't had any service problems in the 2 years+ that we've been here. But the standby generator would be a better choice.
I started with absolutely nothing. Now, thanks to years of hard work, careful planning, and perseverance, I find I still have most of it left.
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#14
I'd guess there are a lot of people asking for quotes in your area... I'd get more quotes / hold off a bit. 

My dad had a 17kw installed for $6,500. My MIL paid a bit over $7,000 for the same thing.
Mark

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#15
(10-31-2018, 07:51 PM)WxMan Wrote: We live in a rural area.  Without backup power, we lose water immediately, and the house will gradually lose heat.  I'll respond on two separate points.

First:  I'd advise you to get a second cost estimate for the generator.  I am under contract now to replace our manually switched 7KW generator with a new 22KW generator.  The setup includes the generator, automated switch, battery, cold weather kit, and installation labor with reconfiguring the electric panel as needed.  The quote for all of it is about $7500.  Truth in advertising:  the propane fuel line is already run to the installation site, but surely that  isn't a $4K cost upper....................
(11-01-2018, 05:32 AM)fredhargis Wrote: I am also in a rural area, with the same circumstances as WxMan. I also installed the 22KW Generac (actually mine has the Honeywell label, the exact same thing), though mine ran about $8K. Most definitely get another quote (or 2) and see if a Kohler dealer is around to ask for a quotw. Our house has 2 gas fireplaces. Apparently the original owners choose to use a ground source heat pump with these fireplaces to supplement the heat. My observations are also much the same as above. You need to run the fans to get heat from them. Even then, they are no efficient at all, and while ours are on a thermostat and will hold the room to a set temp, they consume a lot of fuel to do so. BTW, these are Heat N Glow brand, and we haven't had any service problems in the 2 years+ that we've been here. But the standby generator would be a better choice.

(11-01-2018, 10:06 AM)CLETUS Wrote: I'd guess there are a lot of people asking for quotes in your area... I'd get more quotes / hold off a bit. 

My dad had a 17kw installed for $6,500. My MIL paid a bit over $7,000 for the same thing.


Thanks Guys for the above comments - first, appears that even vented fireplace replacements will not really provide me that much more heat for my 2400 sq. ft. house and the natural gas cost would be more expensive than I thought.  Second, I was suspecting a $6-8K estimate (of course, depending on the size of the generator); my estimate seems almost outrageous!  Looking on the Generac website, the 22kW generator lists there for under $5000, so talking nearly twice that price for the other equipment needed and the installation (natural gas is already in place, so just needs a pipe run) - I've already declined the estimate and will await their response; also, if wife and I want to continue to pursuit this issue, I will certainly obtain other estimates.  Thanks again - Dave
Smile
Piedmont North Carolina
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#16
Bear in mind that a standby genny takes a LOT of gas to run, you might have to upsize the gas service to the house. I think we have a member that had to do just that (upsize the service). Still, it would be the way to go.
I started with absolutely nothing. Now, thanks to years of hard work, careful planning, and perseverance, I find I still have most of it left.
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#17
(11-01-2018, 10:06 AM)CLETUS Wrote: I'd guess there are a lot of people asking for quotes in your area... I'd get more quotes / hold off a bit. 

My dad had a 17kw installed for $6,500. My MIL paid a bit over $7,000 for the same thing.

(11-01-2018, 03:41 PM)fredhargis Wrote: Bear in mind that a standby genny takes a LOT of gas to run, you might have to upsize the gas service to the house. I think we have a member that had to do just that (upsize the service). Still, it would be the way to go.

Hi Cletus - yep, after Florence & Michael, this state has been really devastated, especially in the eastern part of North Carolina - in early December, we're going to Wrightsville Beach near Wilmington (a yearly trip delayed) - just want to see the island and put some money into the economy.  But w/ that $14K quote, I feel like we're being 'scalped' although we've used this company for many years.

Fred - we likely are OK w/ the gas service - now running heat, water heater, stove top, and outside grill, BUT I've emailed Piedmont Gas to check both the cost to run these generators and whether we are prepared, if a decision is made?  Thanks for the help from all.  Dave
Piedmont North Carolina
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#18
(10-31-2018, 04:20 PM)giradman Wrote: Hi All - in the North Carolina Piedmont, we have power outages several times a year typically for hours or a day or two - recently we had a 2-day outage and I obtained an estimate for a 'house generator' - used our local plumbing/HVAC maintenance company - they gave me a free estimate on a 22 kW Generac natural gas generator which was over $12,000 (of course includes installation, gas/electric hookup, and switching panel in the basement) - we are in our early 70s and not sure how much longer we will be in that house, especially if illness hits one of us so hard for me to justify spending that much money for basically the next occupants of the house.

So another thought (been watching a LOT of 'Ask This Old House') would be a vented (both combustion & exhaust via chimney vents) natural gas fireplace insert that would provide some heat to the house in a power outage - I would appreciate any comments on brands/models that might fit my needs, and of course I would need to find a reliable company for the installation.  Thanks for any help.  Dave

The cost shipped to you for a 22KW Generac with transfer switch is under $5,000 from many online sellers. Of course, an installer gets them for less. The rest of the material for the install isn't very costly unless it's a very unusual one. So, they are quoting probably $7-10 thousand for labor!
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#19
(11-02-2018, 05:08 AM)frule Wrote: The cost shipped to you for a 22KW Generac with transfer switch is under $5,000 from many online sellers. Of course, an installer gets them for less. The rest of the material for the install isn't very costly unless it's a very unusual one. So, they are quoting probably $7-10 thousand for labor!

I don't know what Generac's pricing model is. 

I found our installer from the Generac web site; web site listed him as a Generac dealer.  He's an electrician heading up the family business in a small town 40 miles outside the metro area.  I'm sure he ordered direct from Generac.

The price quoted for the 22KW generator, automated switch, cold weather kit, and battery matched Amazon pricing for same.
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#20
(11-02-2018, 05:08 AM)frule Wrote: The cost shipped to you for a 22KW Generac with transfer switch is under $5,000 from many online sellers. Of course, an installer gets them for less. The rest of the material for the install isn't very costly unless it's a very unusual one. So, they are quoting probably $7-10 thousand for labor!

(11-02-2018, 06:13 AM)WxMan Wrote: I don't know what Generac's pricing model is. 

I found our installer from the Generac web site; web site listed him as a Generac dealer.  He's an electrician heading up the family business in a small town 40 miles outside the metro area.  I'm sure he ordered direct from Generac.

The price quoted for the 22KW generator, automated switch, cold weather kit, and battery matched Amazon pricing for same.

Well, the 22 kW Generac generator on their website is about $4,500, so I agree completely that about $9000 has been tacked onto my estimate - seems like I'm being scalped!
Smile

But, I left a post on my neighborhood website - one replier using from another company in the area was similar, i.e. pretty much the same for a 22 kW generator (not sure if it was a Generac?) and nearly $10K for a 16 kW - the company was well rated on my local Angie's list, so I'm counting that as a second estimate - will await other replies.  Thanks again for your comments.  Dave
Piedmont North Carolina
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