Question(s) for Those Who Build Furniture for a Living

[Don_M]

I retired from my full time job a few years ago and so now with some spare time on my hands – I have been approached by several “acquaintances” to build them furniture. So I have a few questions for those of you that do this for a living. Rather than just giving me the general pros and cons (which of course you are free to do) I will throw out some specific questions:


1. Do you charge anything for the initial design process? (i.e., initial consultation, sketching up plans, material take-offs and pricing, etc.)
2. Deposits. Yes/No and if Yes; how much
3. Final payment. Prior to delivery; upon delivery?
4. Warranty from Defects? The extent to which you offer this and for up to how long?


Thanks in advance

[handi]

1) yes, list a reasonable design fee, but include it in the overall price if they move forward. This way you don’t do free design work that others get paid to build.

2&3) yes, I get 50% up front, with the balance due on delivery. You can also break it up into three payments for larger projects. But your deposit should cover all material costs so you do not get stuck with a bill if the client bails.

4) Give a real warranty for workmanship. Your joints should not fail and your finishes should last. Three to Five years is practical. But you also need to be careful and UP FRONT about special circumstances. If the client wants a wax/oil finish for example, they need to understand and accept that there is no warranty on that finish because it is not the best choice and they have to maintain it. 

The biggest advice I can give is to be VERY clear and up front in communication. 
I am not talking lawyers or iron-clad contracts, I never use them. But an email chain with all aspects discussed and agreed to protects you both. 

Finally, figure your price, and stick to it. My attitude is, if I am not going to make money, I’d much rather make no money on the beach than working my butt off in the shop. There is no point in working out what a project will cost only to ignore your own rules.

[cputnam]

As soon as you sell something you now require commercial insurance for your tools and may for liability. Big $$$

Price in your overhead. Cleaning up the shop takes time, electricity costs, and every use kills each tool a tiny bit. Router bits, in particular, can be used up in a single project. How many miles is it to the client's place @ whatever the mileage rate is. What does this do to your taxes? Do you now need Quickbooks or Quicken? CPA tax preparation? ... and so on.

[Ron Brese]

Charge a Proper Price

I lived this life for 15 years prior to entering tool making.

Be realistic about cost and make sure you price to make a decent wage. There are a lot of skilled craftsman that are terrible about the business part of this work. If you don't charge enough for your work it hurts the younger guy that's trying to make a living at this. Receiving a just reward also keeps you engaged in the project in lieu of realizing you've under priced the piece and still have to finish it.




Ron

[Scouter]

Okay, I've never done this as a profession, nor done it for anyone other than family or friends, but I used to run a company where I installed computers and networks at retail establishments. One thing I learned from that is the if it's not in the contract the law favors the customer. To put this in a woodworking example, if you finish the product with a satin wipe-on poly and the customer was expecting a high-gloss finish, it the satin finish is not in the contract the courts can make you refund the entire cost or strip the finish and apply what the customer expected. Doesn't matter if you verbally told them that the finish would be satin, if it's not in the contract then it doesn't exist.

Same if the customer makes a change midway through the project. Let's say they call you while you are still in the cutting phase and ask to change the finish from a mission oak to an antique cherry, if you don't make an addendum to the contract stating the change, and have all parties on the original contract sign it, it doesn't exist. Even if you have a text message between the two the courts will rule in the customer's favor because the original contract is not considered as modified unless a written, signed, modification paper exists.

Sounds nasty, but that's the way things are. I had a customer once who wanted a wifi network installed with a system that would allow employees to connect with their cellphones so they could check available inventory if the customer wanted more of an item that was on the floor. With the size of the store it required a router and an extender. Part way through the project she acquired the store space next-door and wanted the system to be able to reach, we agreed and I installed three more extenders. She complained that the price of the new extenders was significantly higher than the first one, I explained that there was a sale when I bought the initial setup and that the sale was over. She took it to the magistrate and I had to eat the difference.

[EricU]

If you don't charge enough for your work it hurts the younger guy that's trying to make a living at this. 

I tried to start a business where people were charging $1200 for something where their cost of materials and paint was $800-900.  And it takes a good week to make with someone else doing the finishing. This is ignoring the $15000-25000 of tooling most people have. A lot of people have quit since then, most guys are charging $2000 now, which is more like it but still low and the cost of paint has gone up.  There are old heads still charging around $1200. Never quite understood why I would want to work for $2 an hour, and that ignores the time getting the sale, which can be considerable. I figure if you are't pulling down minimum wage, it's not a business, it's charity.

[joe1086]

And make sure your customers know that they are not saving any money getting you to build that bookcase/table/whatever. Many people have no idea what materials, finishing, hardware, etc. cost and think you can build something for less than what Ikea sells it for.

[rwe2156]

Don,

The questions you're asking are applicable to a lot of businesses, so I feel qualified to answer.

1. Do you charge anything for the initial design process? (i.e., initial consultation, sketching up plans, material take-offs and pricing, etc.)

Not the initial consult. This is the time you meet the client and give a first impression.

Yes, design work can time consuming and you should be paid for it.  So beyond the initial "talking phase" you charge for your time.  I know the customer is serious & values my services.  They expect I will put forth a good effort because I've been paid.  Explain the amount of time that goes into it.  The deposit is applied to the balance if they go ahead with the project.  Put together some CAD nice drawings & they will see your work.

2. Deposits. Yes/No and if Yes; how much

Yes, you have to decide how much based on the project and the people and the "vibe" you get.  I think 10% is reasonable.

We just had our windows replaced.  $18K job.  Well know national company.  The required a $2600 deposit, 72 hrs to change our minds.

3. Final payment. Prior to delivery; upon delivery?  You have to think of this from the customers POV so I think is on delivery.  You can't expect them to pay for a project sight unseen.

4. Warranty from Defects? The extent to which you offer this and for up to how long?  I don't think this is going to be a big issue with most cabinet type projects.  Beyond the hardware you can't guarantee a finish past what is reasonable based on the manufacturer's specs.  I think you get the customer to sign off that he's satisfied and then give a reasonable warranty based on the project.  Some hardware will have manufacturers warranties, for example a TV lift.  Keep in mind customer service is what  builds your business.

[Arlin Eastman]

Just my .01 on what someone told me how to charge someone.

Decide how much you want per hour $15 to $100 and then figure out how many hours and that is the base plus the materials and still need to add in the incidentals like Electricity, working materials and so on and then you will come up with the price.  Also think of adding what Fed and State taxes will be to.

[Woodenfish]

Don, just a few starters questions.

Is your relationship to these acquaintances based on an affable friendships or are these people used to having you provide for them some type of goods or services that you would normally receive payment?

Are these projects more artistic/custom/bespoke than normal items in their category?

Will you be building items you already have vast experience?

Have you sold commissioned work in the past and what was the price range?

Just wanting to learn more about the subject if you’re willing to share.