breadboard end technique
#9
I've always done them traditionally with a full length tongue (about 3/8" deep) and then 3 wide tenons spaced inside, glued only in the middle, pined/drawboared elsewhere through elongated holes. 

I've seen some YouTube videos lately of people showing "their new/better way" which inevitably turns out to be using a series of Dominos with elongated slots. Quick and easy right?  Even saw Charles Neil post a video doing the same. 

Doesn't that miss the whole point though - keeping the thing flat? I always thought the full length tongue served that purpose and was critical, but using dominos skips that completely. 

Any personal experiences with the domino approach and how well it keeps things flat?
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#10
I do it your way.

I wouldn’t have ever considered using dominos.

My $0.02
Peter

My "day job"
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#11
I have done it both ways (traditionally and with loose tenons). I tend to disagree with the notion that a breadboard end in and of itself will keep a table flat regardless of how it's done, though it helps. The apron and the breadboard ends together, allowing for suitable movement, should all help keep it flat. This goes along with proper (even) finishing, properly acclimated lumber, and so on. I don't expect more than simply concealing the end grain.

That said, why would loose tenons fail to keep it flat if a continuous solid tenon would? Suitably thick and deep loose tenons should do the same thing. You want to allow for horizontal movement, which is why elongated slots are used. I tend to think the mechanical precision of the Domino is better than the manual elongation done with drills and chisels, so vertical play should be essentially less with the Domino than with traditional methods.
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#12
I've only used the traditional method...but...if I had a Domino, I would use it for breadboards.
"I tried being reasonable..........I didn't like it." Clint Eastwood
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#13
(02-25-2019, 11:50 AM)FS7 Wrote: I have done it both ways (traditionally and with loose tenons). I tend to disagree with the notion that a breadboard end in and of itself will keep a table flat regardless of how it's done, though it helps. The apron and the breadboard ends together, allowing for suitable movement, should all help keep it flat. This goes along with proper (even) finishing, properly acclimated lumber, and so on. I don't expect more than simply concealing the end grain.

That said, why would loose tenons fail to keep it flat if a continuous solid tenon would? Suitably thick and deep loose tenons should do the same thing. You want to allow for horizontal movement, which is why elongated slots are used. I tend to think the mechanical precision of the Domino is better than the manual elongation done with drills and chisels, so vertical play should be essentially less with the Domino than with traditional methods.

Dominoes will keep the breadboard end and table aligned only where they are located; in between can do anything it wants, and glued up tops can often do wonky things.  In contrast, the traditional crenelated construction has a continuous tenon (stub between the full depth ones) over the full width of the top.  Dominoes fit no better than well cut mortise and tenons, though perhaps easier to do.  I agree that a breadboard end by itself will not keep a table top flat, but a well fitted, traditional one will stay aligned with the top over it's full width regardless of what happens.  Not so with Dominoes.  

If Dominoes alone worked well, why didn't the old guys just use deep tenons instead of the more difficult to make crenelated construction?    


John
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#14
(02-25-2019, 05:48 PM)jteneyck Wrote: Dominoes will keep the breadboard end and table aligned only where they are located; in between can do anything it wants, and glued up tops can often do wonky things.  In contrast, the traditional crenelated construction has a continuous tenon (stub between the full depth ones) over the full width of the top.  Dominoes fit no better than well cut mortise and tenons, though perhaps easier to do.  I agree that a breadboard end by itself will not keep a table top flat, but a well fitted, traditional one will stay aligned with the top over it's full width regardless of what happens.  Not so with Dominoes.  

If Dominoes alone worked well, why didn't the old guys just use deep tenons instead of the more difficult to make crenelated construction?    


John

The last breadboard end I did was on Goncalo Alves. I put the tenons about every four inches. The top was almost exactly 1", so I used the biggest tenons I could find (10mm x 50mm). That's about an inch into each piece, and a little over 3/8" of thickness. The tenons I assume are beech since I don't cut my own.

While you are correct, how much can wood possibly move in those four inches? I think the ease of use makes it apparent that the Domino system has its advantages, even for something like this (an off-label use, as it were). My guess would be the old guys didn't have a Domino to work with so they had to do it the hard way. When I was a very rank amateur, I used to do butt joints by drilling a hole about 1/4" deep with a Forstner bit near the edge to be joined. I'd drive a small screw through at an angle (eyeballed, of course) from the bottom corner of the Forstner hole into the adjoining piece. When I got a pocket hole jig, I'd use that. When I got the Domino, I'd use that. If it were a cabinet door and I wanted to do it right, I'd do actual rail and stile routing.

I built something about a dozen years ago (maybe more) that pains me to this day. It's a large armoire-type cabinet that I call a "liquor shed" since my buddy uses it to house his booze (and he has a lot). It was when I was first comfortable enough to build something for somebody else, which looking back was pretty bad. Yet, the thing still stands as solid as can be, finish and all, to this day. The *only* thing that's wrong with it is that the magnets holding the cabinet doors shut are a bit stronger than the glass doors on the cabinets, so it rattles a bit when it's opened. I fully intend to redo with proper doors (and have for years). I guess the point is you tend to use the best and easiest tools you have available. I mean, I hope nobody would ever look at my work and think "wow, that's how they did it in the old days" since it was just a random thought I had, but I suppose it's possible.
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#15
(02-25-2019, 10:02 PM)FS7 Wrote: The last breadboard end I did was on Goncalo Alves. I put the tenons about every four inches. The top was almost exactly 1", so I used the biggest tenons I could find (10mm x 50mm). That's about an inch into each piece, and a little over 3/8" of thickness. The tenons I assume are beech since I don't cut my own.

While you are correct, how much can wood possibly move in those four inches? I think the ease of use makes it apparent that the Domino system has its advantages, even for something like this (an off-label use, as it were). My guess would be the old guys didn't have a Domino to work with so they had to do it the hard way. When I was a very rank amateur, I used to do butt joints by drilling a hole about 1/4" deep with a Forstner bit near the edge to be joined. I'd drive a small screw through at an angle (eyeballed, of course) from the bottom corner of the Forstner hole into the adjoining piece. When I got a pocket hole jig, I'd use that. When I got the Domino, I'd use that. If it were a cabinet door and I wanted to do it right, I'd do actual rail and stile routing.

I built something about a dozen years ago (maybe more) that pains me to this day. It's a large armoire-type cabinet that I call a "liquor shed" since my buddy uses it to house his booze (and he has a lot). It was when I was first comfortable enough to build something for somebody else, which looking back was pretty bad. Yet, the thing still stands as solid as can be, finish and all, to this day. The *only* thing that's wrong with it is that the magnets holding the cabinet doors shut are a bit stronger than the glass doors on the cabinets, so it rattles a bit when it's opened. I fully intend to redo with proper doors (and have for years). I guess the point is you tend to use the best and easiest tools you have available. I mean, I hope nobody would ever look at my work and think "wow, that's how they did it in the old days" since it was just a random thought I had, but I suppose it's possible.

Well, sure, if you put the Dominoes close enough together the top won't be able to move much in between.  And maybe the old guys did it that way once with a bunch of deep tenons, but then figured out that it was easier for them with the equipment they had at that time to only have three or five deep tenons plus the stub tenon to keep the top aligned in between.   So why not combine the two techniques?  Cut a stub tenon and use just a few Dominoes. 


John
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#16
+1 IMO you need the continuous tenon to keep things flush, my problem is I don't see how 1" is a long enough tenon for any breadboard.

You might get the depth you need with a Domino XL, and I suppose you could do them side by side to make a wider tenon.
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