Gent's Saw with a Twist
#21
  Re: Gent's Saw with a Twist by C. in Indy (I have been using an...)
Some people are willing to pay premium prices to have prettier things. But, in this case, I think you lose a bit of functionality along with the art. If someone introduces a new feature into a tool that's been around for centuries where you never see that feature, you have to ask yourself why. Skelton claims the hook allows a place to place your little finger to allow for "consistent and repeatable control over the saw." IMO, it's a hybrid between a pistol grip and traditional grip, and that compromises the advantages of either grip. I don't see my little finger adding that much more control - especially if it's going to grip the handle where it's most likely to rotate the saw instead of keep it aligned in the cut.
Still Learning,

Allan Hill
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#22
  Re: RE: Gent's Saw with a Twist by Derek Cohen ([quote='Alan S' pid=...)
(08-07-2019, 11:10 AM)Derek Cohen Wrote: That design makes no sense. 

I like the squared sides of the handle. They would be grippier than round sides, which can twist in the hand.

However the hook at the rear of the handle would be useful only if this was a pull saw .... but a gent saw is a push saw, and so the hook is just an affectation. 

Nice looking saw, anyway.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I used a gent's saw for many years.  Some projects, I spent an entire 4+ hours with a gent's saw in my hand. After a while, my hand started to ache. 

The name comes from the intended customer - gentlemen craftsmen, i.e. its not a pro's tool. The handle is a cheaper alternative to a pistol grip saw, designed for part time users.  As such, many of us fit that category, if woodworking is a part time past time thing, gent's saws make sense.

The problem I have with these new tools isn't the innovation, though I admit I'm skeptical of innovations on 300 year old tool forms, its that the tool makers aren't always expert users and they can sometimes unwittingly undo useful features.  Not saying that's the case here, but here is an example of a feature I feel many modern saw makers are getting wrong.

When cutting half blind dovetails, 18th c cabinetmakers very often over cut the base line to saw out as much of the corner as possible. So if you look at an old drawer back, you will invariably see these overcuts.  Not present on every piece, but not uncommon.  The problem (of not being able to completely saw a 1/2 blind pin) is worse for lipped drawers.  The material you can saw cut can be pretty small. What I have done and seen evidence of, is I dig the heel of the saw into the corner, using just the last few teeth on the saw. When I made saws, I made sure the handle wouldn't be in the way of that and those last teeth were a bit larger or more aggressive and the end of the saw plate was under square to the toothed edge (tapered saw plate) and the heel teeth were close to the end of the saw plate.

Not only did I frequently dig with my DT saws, I also often turned them around, holding the toothed blade in my hand and dug that way. In just a few minutes, and with a modest over cut, you can saw out almost all of the half blind and save yourself a lot of chisel work. Sawing is WAY faster than chiseling.

Please mention my name when you (whoever you are) use this information for your next book, magazine article, or 18th c woodworking class!
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#23
  Re: RE: Gent's Saw with a Twist by adamcherubini ([quote='Derek Cohen'...)
Adam: Brilliant! I will be trying this next time I product a drawer. Thanks for the unexpected lesson!. Phil



(08-08-2019, 11:05 AM)adamcherubini Wrote: I used a gent's saw for many years.  Some projects, I spent an entire 4+ hours with a gent's saw in my hand. After a while, my hand started to ache. 

The name comes from the intended customer - gentlemen craftsmen, i.e. its not a pro's tool. The handle is a cheaper alternative to a pistol grip saw, designed for part time users.  As such, many of us fit that category, if woodworking is a part time past time thing, gent's saws make sense.

The problem I have with these new tools isn't the innovation, though I admit I'm skeptical of innovations on 300 year old tool forms, its that the tool makers aren't always expert users and they can sometimes unwittingly undo useful features.  Not saying that's the case here, but here is an example of a feature I feel many modern saw makers are getting wrong.

When cutting half blind dovetails, 18th c cabinetmakers very often over cut the base line to saw out as much of the corner as possible. So if you look at an old drawer back, you will invariably see these overcuts.  Not present on every piece, but not uncommon.  The problem (of not being able to completely saw a 1/2 blind pin) is worse for lipped drawers.  The material you can saw cut can be pretty small. What I have done and seen evidence of, is I dig the heel of the saw into the corner, using just the last few teeth on the saw. When I made saws, I made sure the handle wouldn't be in the way of that and those last teeth were a bit larger or more aggressive and the end of the saw plate was under square to the toothed edge (tapered saw plate) and the heel teeth were close to the end of the saw plate.

Not only did I frequently dig with my DT saws, I also often turned them around, holding the toothed blade in my hand and dug that way. In just a few minutes, and with a modest over cut, you can saw out almost all of the half blind and save yourself a lot of chisel work. Sawing is WAY faster than chiseling.

Please mention my name when you (whoever you are) use this information for your next book, magazine article, or 18th c woodworking class!
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#24
  Re: RE: Gent's Saw with a Twist by adamcherubini ([quote='Derek Cohen'...)
(08-08-2019, 11:05 AM)adamcherubini Wrote: I used a gent's saw for many years.  Some projects, I spent an entire 4+ hours with a gent's saw in my hand. After a while, my hand started to ache. 

The name comes from the intended customer - gentlemen craftsmen, i.e. its not a pro's tool. The handle is a cheaper alternative to a pistol grip saw, designed for part time users.  As such, many of us fit that category, if woodworking is a part time past time thing, gent's saws make sense.

The problem I have with these new tools isn't the innovation, though I admit I'm skeptical of innovations on 300 year old tool forms, its that the tool makers aren't always expert users and they can sometimes unwittingly undo useful features.  Not saying that's the case here, but here is an example of a feature I feel many modern saw makers are getting wrong.

When cutting half blind dovetails, 18th c cabinetmakers very often over cut the base line to saw out as much of the corner as possible. So if you look at an old drawer back, you will invariably see these overcuts.  Not present on every piece, but not uncommon.  The problem (of not being able to completely saw a 1/2 blind pin) is worse for lipped drawers.  The material you can saw cut can be pretty small. What I have done and seen evidence of, is I dig the heel of the saw into the corner, using just the last few teeth on the saw. When I made saws, I made sure the handle wouldn't be in the way of that and those last teeth were a bit larger or more aggressive and the end of the saw plate was under square to the toothed edge (tapered saw plate) and the heel teeth were close to the end of the saw plate.

Not only did I frequently dig with my DT saws, I also often turned them around, holding the toothed blade in my hand and dug that way. In just a few minutes, and with a modest over cut, you can saw out almost all of the half blind and save yourself a lot of chisel work. Sawing is WAY faster than chiseling.

Please mention my name when you (whoever you are) use this information for your next book, magazine article, or 18th c woodworking class!

Adam, I guess we are digressing from gent saws - which we both agree have limitations compared with pistol grips - to sawing technique. As one does ... Smile

I would argue that fashion also dictates the development of technique. What was satisfactory 200 years ago when sawing half-blind dovetails would not be acceptable today, especially with higher end work. That is, a higher standard is expected, specifically, that overcuts are seen to be sloppy work.

There is an alternative. About 20 or so years ago, Tage Frid suggested using a piece of bandsaw blade to deepen the saw kerf in the socket. Then it became a scraper blade. About 10 years ago I developed this into a dedicated tool, which I called a kerfing chisel. Others have since copied this with variation on the theme. Here is my kerfing chisel. 




It leaves a much neater job, and is also one that is easier to excavate.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at http://www.inthewoodshop.com
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#25
  Re: RE: Gent's Saw with a Twist by adamcherubini ([quote='Derek Cohen'...)
(08-08-2019, 11:05 AM)adamcherubini Wrote: [snip]
The name comes from the intended customer - gentlemen craftsmen, i.e. its not a pro's tool. The handle is a cheaper alternative to a pistol grip saw, designed for part time users.  As such, many of us fit that category, if woodworking is a part time past time thing, gent's saws make sense.

[snip]

I agree: a gent's saw is not a pro's tool.  I would go farther: in most circumstances, it is plainly an inferior tool in use.  I suggest you tacitly recognize this by reporting the ache of your 4 hour session(s).  

And another point: "gentlemen craftsmen" of the 18th and 19th  centuries were those who enjoyed sufficient prosperity to afford the luxury of leisure to indulge "hobby woodworking."  Cheapness of tools was probably far less an issue in those days for the leisured class than for the pro workers and seems a thin justfication for the handle design.  I can't pretend to know enough to suggest a better reason for such a design, but cheapness does not ring true for me.  

You and others can make up your own minds.  For me, I'm relegating this thing to my "lipstick on a pig" file folder.  A beautiful pig, tho.
Fair winds and following seas,
Jim Waldron
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#26
  Re: RE: Gent's Saw with a Twist by Jim Waldron ([quote='adamcherubin...)
(08-08-2019, 01:30 PM)Jim Waldron Wrote: I agree: a gent's saw is not a pro's tool.  I would go farther: in most circumstances, it is plainly an inferior tool in use.  I suggest you tacitly recognize this by reporting the ache of your 4 hour session(s).  

And another point: "gentlemen craftsmen" of the 18th and 19th  centuries were those who enjoyed sufficient prosperity to afford the luxury of leisure to indulge "hobby woodworking."  Cheapness of tools was probably far less an issue in those days for the leisured class than for the pro workers and seems a thin justfication for the handle design.  I can't pretend to know enough to suggest a better reason for such a design, but cheapness does not ring true for me.  

You and others can make up your own minds.  For me, I'm relegating this thing to my "lipstick on a pig" file folder.  A beautiful pig, tho.

I don't have the info in front of me, but I think I've seen prices for gent's saws from the early 19th c that were significantly cheaper than pistol-gripped saws.

Anecdotally, when I made saws, people would pick them up and marvel over the tiny teeth I cut (by hand).  I don't think it ever took me much more than 40 minutes to cut teeth in any hand saw. I didn't think much of it, other than my wife hated the sound. I spent easily a few hours making the handles.  I sawed them with a framed scroll saw I made, then carved and rasped from there. I didn't use sand paper.  Modern sawmakers use routers or cnc routers which I'm sure make handles much easier to make. They may have drum sanders or dremels that make the work faster. I can turn a handle for a gent's saw probably in less than 10 minutes from raw stock. I recall speaking with Mike Wenzloff about handles.  He agreed it was the most time consuming part of a hand saw build.
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#27
  Re: RE: Gent's Saw with a Twist by Philip1231 (Adam: Brilliant! I ...)
(08-08-2019, 12:49 PM)Philip1231 Wrote: Adam: Brilliant!  I will be trying this next time I product a drawer. Thanks for the unexpected lesson!. Phil
Over cutting, chisel, card scraper, saw heel., or dovetail tool. They all accomplish the same task.
 Being creative and trying new things should never take a back seat to "Tradition" or criticism, but rather considered together. I sometimes wonder what the 17th century craftsmen were saying about the 18th century tool innovations. Wouldn't that be a hoot. Big Grin Learn from the past, but never be stifled by it. I myself use both gent saws and pistol grip saws. Mostly my dovetail saws.  "I recall speaking with Mike Wenzloff about handles.  He agreed it was the most time consuming part of a hand saw build. " Absolutely correct. Particularly if all done by hand.
Best wishes.
BontzSawWorks.net
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#28
  Re: RE: Gent's Saw with a Twist by adamcherubini ([quote='Derek Cohen'...)
(08-08-2019, 11:05 AM)adamcherubini Wrote: The name comes from the intended customer - gentlemen craftsmen, i.e. its not a pro's tool.

The German name of that kind of saw ist Feinsäge wich means fine saw. Names of tools don't proof anything.

I love gents saws for scuts high above the bench. Better to hold there. The round handle allows more different holding positions.

Cheers
Pedder
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#29
  Re: Gent's Saw with a Twist by C. in Indy (I have been using an...)
Amazing work and beautiful saws, I don't find them trying too hard for attention at all. I like the straight handles they do best.

Really beautiful saws, great work, good to see more quality saws.

Alan
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#30
  Re: Gent's Saw with a Twist by C. in Indy (I have been using an...)
I have an accummulation of all styles of saws, including LV, LN, Disston gent's saws. The LV are great, quick all purpose saws, though the rip will never replace my traditional handled DT saws.

The one gent' style that has not been mentioned, was the Tools for Working Wood gent's saw, that had a rather squat, bulbous handle. I meant to order one, but sadly they disappeared before I ever did. The handle style has not shown on any other gent's saws I've seen. Also, has anyone rehandled a gent's saw with a London pattern handle?
Waiting to grow up beyond being just a member
http://www.metaltech-pm.com
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