Screwed up wiring?
#45
  Re: RE: Screwed up wiring? by TDKPE ([quote='KC' pid='780...)
(12-28-2019, 11:01 AM)TDKPE Wrote: Yeah, I should clarify - if you pull a permit, rip out the walls or strip off drywall, move things around, and so on (like I did), depending on the local authorities, you’d almost certainly have to bring the electric in that room up to whatever code cycle is current in your area.  

I even had to add hard-wired smoke detectors to each bedroom, plus in each area outside of bedrooms, plus on each floor including the basement, all linked.  They made it sound like hardwiring was code, but they kind of softened and said they can’t really force anyone to pull wiring and that battery units would also be acceptable.  I pulled wire, because I could, and I wanted them linked (wireless wasn’t a thing then).   Winkgrin

And technically, moving a 3-wire, ungrounded range or dryer receptacle would require upgrading to a 4-wire, grounded type.   Uhoh

Uhoh  is right.  It was a surface mount receptacle with enough slack in the line from the basement to move it however far I moved it.
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#46
  Re: RE: Screwed up wiring? by Scouter ([quote='TDKPE' pid='...)
(12-28-2019, 10:04 AM)Scouter Wrote: [quote pid='7808378' dateline='1577541860']
....  I have run into a lot of things that make you scratch your head. Like a double gang box where one outlet or switch is grounded but the other isn't.

[/quote]


Probably both were grounded.  At least when considering code from those earlier days.

That time predates plastic boxes. So, if anything in there was grounded then everything was grounded via the metal box and the devices’ metal adhering screws.
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#47
  Re: RE: Screwed up wiring? by srv52761 ([quote='Scouter' pid...)
(12-28-2019, 12:01 PM)KC Wrote: Uhoh  is right.  It was a surface mount receptacle with enough slack in the line from the basement to move it however far I moved it.

I’m just parroting what the NEC says.  Moving it a little bit is arguably not really mandated.  But the authors (code making panel, or CMP) is trying to ‘encourage’ the discontinuation of ungrounded range and dryer circuits, for safety reasons.  I don’t disagree, FWIW - I’ve been zapped plenty of times by hot skin appliances.

Quote:Probably both were grounded.  At least when considering code from those earlier days.

That time predates plastic boxes. So, if anything in there was grounded then everything was grounded via the metal box and the devices’ metal adhering screws.

Since we’re already way down in the weeds, those dryer and range circuits are technically ungrounded, with the frames bonded to the neutral.  They were often, if not usually, wired with service entrance cable, which has two insulated conductors plus the uninsulated neutral which is stranded and wraps the insulated pair, and has a sheath over the whole thing.  Since all three conductors carry current, the plugs and receptacles (NEMA 10-30 and 10-50) were classified as 125/250V 3-pole*, 3-wire, ungrounded, with two hots and a neutral.**  

Since (I think) 1996, only NEMA 14-30 and 14-50 receptacles (or hardwiring, of course) were permitted for dryers and ranges, and they’re 125/250V, 3-pole*, 4-wire, grounded devices, and a bonding strap inside the dryer or range is not used.  That way the frame is not subject to voltage variations (to ground) due to current flow in the neutral, and especially due to loss of the neutral where the frame will become energized.  

I’m not positive, but I believe SER cable (4-conductor) is permitted indoors for branch circuits like this.  Both types are usually aluminium, because it’s cheaper, though copper is actually made also.

https://www.julesbartow.com/Electrical/R...tacles.jpg

*A “pole” carries current in normal use, as applied to breakers, receptacles, disconnects, etc.
**To make things worse, the neutral is called the ‘grounded conductor’, as opposed to the ‘equipment grounding conductor’, in NEC-speak, so in the old systems the frames actually were grounded, but not by an independent conductor.
Tom

“This place smells like that odd combo of flop sweat, hopelessness, aaaand feet.”







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#48
  Re: Screwed up wiring? by Scouter (I could use some hel...)
Couple of other thoughts...
As this is an older house it probably only had a light at first, then years later they addeded the fan.

If so, then unless they added the fan during a major remodel there is a good chance they fished that cable for S2.  The only thing holding it may be the cable clamps at the boxes.

If that is the case, you have your pull string to run your new cable.


Also, inspect the boxes, the original box at the switch would have needed to be changed to a 2 gang, so it may already be an old work box simplifying removal.  But the box at the light may be the original.
In that case it is possible there is no clamp and the cable can be pulled easier.  
Also, fished cables usually have a few inches of slack, giving you options. ......  Never mind the options, if it was a fished cable, use it to pull a new, longer one.

If it is fishable, to avoid losing it, maybe use it to pull a longer bona fide pull string first. That will help a lot to keep the head of the wire pull narrow if you have to traverse bored holes (snip the conductors so it is one conductor, then two conductors an inch later, then the third conductor, start taping your head from the three conductors and work your way to the pull string so the overlaps will help guide the head through.  Heck, since you already have an equipment ground conductor in your switch box you could get by with 14-2 with no ground).

Rethinking options... if the cable has to traverse bored holes in ceiling joists or such, maybe finding slack will be the key.

Reworking older houses is a joy for problem solving, but a bear to actually do.

Edit: another option if it is a fished cable... tie a pull string on one end of the cable, pull about a foot of it out from the other (the light box if no cable clamp).  Add about 2’ or so with the inline splice (it IS listed and meets NEC).  Use the Pull string to get about 8” out the other box.  You want to add maybe 2’ to make sure you have enough to feed the splice into the wall/ceiling, the picture shows it’s kinda long.  This may be better if you think bored holes may be a problem.
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