Affording good sharpening stones
  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie ([quote='Bruce Haugen...)
(01-28-2020, 07:35 PM)Robin Dobbie Wrote: Like a few people, you've missed the point of the thread. To reiterate, it was initially humor, now it's just commentary and Q&A on various sharpening methods. I appreciate the peptalk. Sounds like you got a good deal on that cast iron plate and its flattening. Pretty good indeed. Do you have a link to the diamond paste you've got? What I've seen regarding cleaning up after every use is that the paste can harden, and then it doesn't matter how flat your plate is. It could just be one particular brand, or false marketing to get people to buy more paste?

Yup, missed the point.

The paste I use doesn’t harden.

Go to page 44 of this catalog.  It’s a PDF

Minnesota lapidary supply.
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  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie ([quote='Timberwolf' ...)
(01-28-2020, 07:24 PM)Robin Dobbie Wrote: I don't know if you know this, but when you use waterstones, it makes anime real. lol But seriously, I got them because I wanted the renewable surface and they have higher grits. People claim they cut faster than oil stones, but I dunno. Also, since waterstones are higher grit, so theoretically between the faster cutting and the higher grit, the implication could be that the tools last longer? I guess that doesn't matter that much to me at the moment, I'm using $50(really $20) woodcraft chisels and the plane irons that came with the planes. Maybe if I had a set of PMV11 god-like tools I'd care. I think I should have just gotten diamond stones for everything. Especially now that I know about those $10-$20 diamond discs you told us about. I was reading about the 3000 grit discs and that they're probably closer to 1000, but you seemed pretty happy with yours, so at some point I'll probably try a set. 


You're probably right. I do know when drilling metal that the bits last longer with slower RPM and more pressure. Less heat more cutting. I guess that doesn't translate to all kinds of sharpening? I remember I have to really bear down on my diamond plate to get it to do anything, and it's 220/320 grit.
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Here's a link for a grit comparison chart that you may find interesting....

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYB...13&bih=402

An ordinary "twist drill bit" cuts by the act of "wedging"...not abrasion...A certain amount of "downforce" ie..pressure, is required to create the "wedging action". Abrasive material {grit } like diamond, "abrades" the material. It "wears" it away, creating a swarf of grit and steel instead of a steel shaving..Diamond, as well as other abrasives, will "break down" into smaller particle sizes in use... In the lapidary hobby,we used to charge annealed copper laps with diamond grit by using a hardened steel or agate roller to embed the grit into the surface of the lap. The roller would "push" the diamond into the copper where some of it would be trapped..Your diamond plates have the grit plated with nickel or alloy where it is trapped by the nickel matrix...As the sharp diamond points "break down", they abrade more slowly and they wear out....OTOH Waterstone grit is trapped in a soft matrix and as it wears away, new points are exposed which makes the stone abrade faster..India and other manmade hones usually have a hard matrix that wears much longer but does not cut as fast...You can buy CBN hones that have different characteristics but I have never tried one....I do have a CBN wheel on a bench grinder and like it very much...

I'll stop rambling now..... Winkgrin Big Grin
"If you don't read newspapers you're uninformed...If you do read newspapers, you're misinformed.....Mark Twain

Jack Edgar, Sgt. USMC Korean War 51/52
Get off my lawn ! Upset





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  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie ([quote='Bruce Haugen...)
(01-28-2020, 07:35 PM)Robin Dobbie Wrote: Like a few people, you've missed the point of the thread. To reiterate, it was initially humor, now it's just commentary and Q&A on various sharpening methods. I appreciate the peptalk. Sounds like you got a good deal on that cast iron plate and its flattening. Pretty good indeed. Do you have a link to the diamond paste you've got? What I've seen regarding cleaning up after every use is that the paste can harden, and then it doesn't matter how flat your plate is. It could just be one particular brand, or false marketing to get people to buy more paste?

I am going through a lot of mystery dispensation regarding sharpening and stones right now. I really think a group of people find false information attractive, like with half this country. 

Hard paste is just hard BS. I have never cleaned my diamond plates ... until now. Rust or blood, it stays. If I add paste, it's about the size of a small grain of rice. The diamond is costly, and I try to keep it on the steel.

FWI, I use the back of my starter diamond, a DMT plate, for the coarse grit from TFWW. The DMT wore down noticeably by and after the second time I used it.  

I have been on a mission to sharpen the collection of kitchen knives, an eclectic group of Wusthof, JA Henckels, and Who Knows... Using new Besters and Mystery Name (maybe, 3k is Bester?). It is a delightful experience. I will advance to Japanese laminate chisels soon.
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  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
Bruce, thanks for the link. That's still fascinating that even if you got 10 grams, even used 3 times per application would last years. I just never would have guessed.

Timberwolf, that link is just a google search, which one are you referring to?

Saw one chart that included shapton. Earlier in the thread someone said how jagged the edge was with shaptons. I didn't know what they were talking about until I saw one of those charts. Relative to my diamond plate and aluminum oxide stone, the shaptons are fine, especially the 5000 which I feel is exceedingly fine. But I see that their standard of grit rating is different from many such that by the time they reach 30,000, some others are rating at only about 20,000. Not that anyone in woodworking need go that high. Or even half that. Bruce mentioned his friend that makes museum pieces and 800 is as high as they go, which I suppose is what my shapton 1000 is, really. Paul Sellers had a video demonstrating 250 grit as a useful grit-r-done grit. Then you've got Rob Cosman saying you need 16000. But he sells that stuff so I don't know how serious to take him.

I never thought about the wedging action of drill bits. I always assumed that as long as one thing was harder than the other thing, the softer thing would give way. I assumed the chip length had to do with the material brittleness. Anyway, don't stop rambling. Too many people write books and make youtube videos that are purely motivated to sell stuff. I don't get the feeling that's what you're about. But I could be wrong! lol

hbmcc, I cleaned my plate for the first time the other night. It just had some gunk in it and it seemed like the kind of thing that could trap moisture and cause a problem. And the very least I figured it could make it easier if things weren't trapped in the grit. Plus now it looks like new, and I like shiny things. I just used a brass brush and some liquid wrench. I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression, I'm not a clean freak. It just hard to leave the diamond alone when if it were a file, rasp, or sandpaper, I would clear the grit to get better performance. But either way what I was referring to hardening was the diamond paste that comes out of a syringe in a goop. But I guess that's a non-issue.
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  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
I generally avoid sharpening threads these days, but heck, it seems like folks are being polite. :-)

When I first started out I had a coarse crystalon stone, and a medium india stone, a soft Arkansas stone and an old german 4-sided razor strop.  For coarse grinding I had access to a Dayton 6-inch grinder, here at work (I still do).  I used these for 20 years without any problems.  I managed to get tools sharp enough to do what needed doing.  Later, say early 90's, I tried water stones.  I didn't really like them.  They required so much fussing IMO.  They worked fine but it seemed like I was spending as much time fussing with the stones as I was woodworking.  So I abandoned them.  To be truthful, I never really gave them a fair shot.  I was stuck in my ways.  

I read an article (I have mentioned this before in other threads) in which Tage Frid said he sharpened on a belt sander to establish a bevel, then honed by stropping on a muslin polishing wheel with Jewelers rouge or Tripoli paste.  I gave that a try and it worked!  So I did that for awhile.  Then all the rage was scary sharp ™, which is the cheapest way to get into it (IMO) and the results were great!  I got a good deal on granite floor tiles (which measured very flat) and the paper was cheap.  But still it was a lot of fuss, and really needed a dedicated bench.

I bought a Tormek grinder from somebody here 10 years ago and I do like using that to grind bevels then finish by stropping.  But the Tormek isn't exactly portable and I rarely use any of the drawer-full of jigs and attachments.  I just freehand it.  It's a good system, but dressing the stone and getting it wet initially, then cleaning out the tray of metal dust is STILL too much bother to justify using it all the time.

But then I saw Paul Sellers and his plate of 3-diamond stones and decided to give it a try.  I bought a set of (10 x 4) DMT stones from Sharpening Supplies dot com for big money (nearly 300 bucks at the time) and have never looked back.  I've had them for 4 or 5 years now and they still work great.  When my edges get dull or dubbed from too much stropping, re-establishing a bevel on the extra coarse stone takes a few minutes to be sure, but then to sharpen and hone to a wire edge and strop takes only minutes.  You can use them dry, but I like to use soapy water with them.  They are flat enough, they cut fast, and the edge I can get from them is as good as any other method I've used.  

The main benefit to these (for me) is that touching up an edge takes only minutes.  Once the edge is established, I can maintain it with the strop a dozen or more times before I have to go back to the stones.  Even when I do have to go back, it only takes a couple of minutes.  

I will say, I don't hollow grind, quite the opposite.  I actually have a convex grind.  I've done this ever since buying a c. 1850- 1875 tool chest (nearly ten years ago) in which every single chisel and plane blade was sharpened this way.  About that time Adam Cherubini had an article in PWW touting the same thing.  It works for me.  I sold all of my honing guides and I don't seem to have tools that are less sharp as a result.  Quite the opposite, it takes so little time to touch up an edge that, I do it more frequently.  Since I'm rarely going back to the grinder, I'm not wearing tools away like I once did.  

I prefer tools made of O-1 steel and am happy to touch up the edges frequently.

I guess if I was starting out again, I'd first try Scary Sharp ™ since the up-front costs are minimal, then buy diamond stones as I could afford them.

My 2 cents.

DC
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  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (Bruce, thanks for th...)
(01-29-2020, 02:31 PM)Robin Dobbie Wrote: Bruce, thanks for the link. That's still fascinating that even if you got 10 grams, even used 3 times per application would last years. I just never would have guessed.

Timberwolf, that link is just a google search, which one are you referring to?

Saw one chart that included shapton. Earlier in the thread someone said how jagged the edge was with shaptons. I didn't know what they were talking about until I saw one of those charts. Relative to my diamond plate and aluminum oxide stone, the shaptons are fine, especially the 5000 which I feel is exceedingly fine. But I see that their standard of grit rating is different from many such that by the time they reach 30,000, some others are rating at only about 20,000. Not that anyone in woodworking need go that high. Or even half that. Bruce mentioned his friend that makes museum pieces and 800 is as high as they go, which I suppose is what my shapton 1000 is, really. Paul Sellers had a video demonstrating 250 grit as a useful grit-r-done grit. Then you've got Rob Cosman saying you need 16000. But he sells that stuff so I don't know how serious to take him.

I never thought about the wedging action of drill bits. I always assumed that as long as one thing was harder than the other thing, the softer thing would give way. I assumed the chip length had to do with the material brittleness. Anyway, don't stop rambling. Too many people write books and make youtube videos that are purely motivated to sell stuff. I don't get the feeling that's what you're about. But I could be wrong! lol

hbmcc, I cleaned my plate for the first time the other night. It just had some gunk in it and it seemed like the kind of thing that could trap moisture and cause a problem. And the very least I figured it could make it easier if things weren't trapped in the grit. Plus now it looks like new, and I like shiny things. I just used a brass brush and some liquid wrench. I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression, I'm not a clean freak. It just hard to leave the diamond alone when if it were a file, rasp, or sandpaper, I would clear the grit to get better performance. But either way what I was referring to hardening was the diamond paste that comes out of a syringe in a goop. But I guess that's a non-issue.
..................
I never thought about the wedging action of drill bits. I always assumed that as long as one thing was harder than the other thing, the softer thing would give way. I assumed the chip length had to do with the material brittleness. Anyway, don't stop rambling. Too many people write books and make youtube videos that are purely motivated to sell stuff. I don't get the feeling that's what you're about. But I could be wrong! lol

............................
That's kinda the way it works...The harder drill bit wedges the material apart..The chip length depends partly on the geometry of the cutting edge of the bit...I grind a "chip-breaker" configuration on my metal lathe tool bits so the metal breaks in small pieces rather than long, sharp curls of steel that can cut you and wrap around the chuck..Interrupting the feed will break the chips also..just as in a drill press...

I like Youtube videos but have never made one, and all I ever sell is antique tools I have accumulated over about 70 years... Crazy  Laugh
"If you don't read newspapers you're uninformed...If you do read newspapers, you're misinformed.....Mark Twain

Jack Edgar, Sgt. USMC Korean War 51/52
Get off my lawn ! Upset





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  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
Holey Cows! Everything you want to know about sharpening .... from the grit's point of view : https://scienceofsharp.com/  Have no idea how I got there. Kinda fun to read. Never thought steel looked like Betty Crocker Creamy Frosting.
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  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
DCarr10760, Paul's method is so fast. It's hard to argue with the speed of that system. Regardless of how much effort diamond plates take after a while, I think the maintained flatness is easier on the body because it limits the user error(maybe just my user error) very possible with waterstones dishing quickly when trying to polish the backs of tools.

Timberwolf you should make some videos. Maybe even a timelapse of some carvings, that would be amazing.

hbmcc that link was awesome! Shows some neat electronmicroscope images of the edges of I guess straight razors. I imagine that's stainless steel? Which is possibly softer than the tool steel we use. I wonder how that translates into number of strokes when stropping. I'm honestly thinking the image with 10 strokes with the chromium oxide is good enough. But I wonder if there's a comparison for woodworking tools? I know Paul Sellers does 30 strokes on whatever kind of tool steel, he's coming off 1200 worn(broken-in) diamond plate, and using chromium oxide on very loaded leather with the rough side up.


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  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
I am stepping back to try some different (softer) water stones after my original frustration with hard King-made water stones. The irritation was with PM-V11 and laminated steels taking forever to shape. However, Lee Valley and japanese steels were slow using the diamond paste. 

Now, shaping standard stainless kitchen knives is sweet! A new set of japanese oiirenome in White #1 actually cut pleasantly. The LV PM-V11 is still a b**ch to sharpen. And the lands on LV chisels are sharper than most sharpened cutting tools. I have to use a guide when setting up the above noted chisels.

I am not messing with micro-bevels, unless PM-V11 continues to be a time hog. Because I like oiirenome I use the LV bench chisels for paring.

So, after the butter frosting adventure, I found Murray Carter who sharpens everything post manufacture on ... right, King stones. But, he only suggests flattening stones if it should be a Zen feature. But, then, he sells what he scorns, too. He has a decent cutlery sharpening video.... Two or three hours. I skipped out of class at the intermission. If I can't remember something at the third repeat, there is no need to agonize longer.
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  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
The searching I did on King, before I tried to order them and having them arrive broken, revealed that they were good for vintage steel, O1, and other "softer" tool steels, but maybe not good for some newer harder steels. Some people said it was fine, they just took longer. And then there were possibility of different versions of the KDS combo because some have a divider between the grits and some don't. I emailed matsunaga corp about it and never got a reply. Like I said I went ahead and tried to get some because they're cheap. My chisels are cheap so I figured I'd give it a go.

I thought Carter switched to the nano-hone that Hap Stanley started selling. They're the ones doing the 3-hour sharpening classes for almost $400 where they wear traditional Japanese clothing and show you how to put their stones on their $600 lapping plates and $110 stone holders in their $230 sharpening ponds. But hey, they're successful, so more power to em. And Carter's pretty bad a55, he forges his own knives, which is pretty cool. All that stuff is just so far outside of my league right now, so I'm not even worried about it. It's a lot of Fru Fru, but I'm just not in their demographic so they're not worried about it either.
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