Affording good sharpening stones
#91
  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Greg Jones ([quote='Robin Dobbie...)
(01-25-2020, 12:00 PM)Greg Jones Wrote: They have a powered Mk.II sharpening system also.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/too...ing-system

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Yes That's the one I was referring to. Winkgrin
I love the Corps for those intangible possessions that cannot be
issued: pride, honor, integrity, and being able to carry on the
traditions for generations of warriors past. [Cpl. Jeff Sornij, USMC;
in Navy Times, November 1994]


Jack Edgar, Sgt. USMC Korean War 51/52
Get off my lawn ! Upset





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#92
  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie ($3 per tool. Holy sm...)
(01-24-2020, 03:23 PM)Robin Dobbie Wrote:



The bevel isn't a big deal, but at some point the stuff on the bottom is going to be a problem.
If that pitting is at the cutting edge the tool is toast already. Snaggletooth should be in the tar pits.
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#93
  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
Nah, the pitting is on the bottom, about 3/8 from the cutting edge. And it's only spanning 1/8th" from speck to speck. So this is a bit of a macro image. It's bad, but I think it appears worse than it is. Wont know for sure until I try to flatten it more, but I don't know when that'll be.

Timberwolf, what's your opinion on the powered MKII vs the worksharp? To my amateur eyes the MKII just looks like a fancy WS3000 with two moar inches. They both are claimed to be powered by a 1/4 HP motor, that I do know.

Now I know there are 10" diamond discs for $22, that's making me wonder if I should build something. I really want to add it to the pile of projects I've started and not finished.
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#94
  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (Nah, the pitting is ...)
(01-25-2020, 03:55 PM)Robin Dobbie Wrote: Nah, the pitting is on the bottom, about 3/8 from the cutting edge. And it's only spanning 1/8th" from speck to speck. So this is a bit of a macro image. It's bad, but I think it appears worse than it is. Wont know for sure until I try to flatten it more, but I don't know when that'll be.

Timberwolf, what's your opinion on the powered MKII vs the worksharp? To my amateur eyes the MKII just looks like a fancy WS3000 with two moar inches. They both are claimed to be powered by a 1/4 HP motor, that I do know.

Now I know there are 10" diamond discs for $22, that's making me wonder if I should build something. I really want to add it to the pile of projects I've started and not finished.

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The WS is half the price of the Mark II but IMO, the MKII is a more powerful, higher quality and more versatile machine. However, it may be more than you need for just chisels and plane irons....With the larger lap, the MKII is faster, due to the "rim speed" ...IIRC, both machines run at around the same RPM..I would just say that, for the money, it is hard to beat the WS. A few Japanese Waterstones could cost you more than the WS and the time saved sharpening by hand { the old fashioned way } could be used woodworking.
I love the Corps for those intangible possessions that cannot be
issued: pride, honor, integrity, and being able to carry on the
traditions for generations of warriors past. [Cpl. Jeff Sornij, USMC;
in Navy Times, November 1994]


Jack Edgar, Sgt. USMC Korean War 51/52
Get off my lawn ! Upset





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#95
  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
Buy a set (your choice of grit) of King Stones. You can try them out but I suggest leave them in the package and use them for bench ballast. I guess they are pretty cheap, compared, so brick weights won't be so extreme a foolish reminder. 

Second advisory: Don't buy cheap diamond powder, or paste. Get your stone/grit from the pricey side of the world. The cheap source is from the janitor at the factory ... if you are lucky. A good supplier of diamond paste has been Tools For Working Wood, a water soluble paste. [Now, I need to clean up all my diamond plates.....]

Third: Unless you take a tool to the stone shop and test, don't waste time with natural stones.

My two pennies, that cost a whole lot more in reality.
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#96
  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
(01-25-2020, 06:42 PM)Timberwolf Wrote: ......................
The WS is half the price of the Mark II but IMO, the MKII is a more powerful, higher quality and more versatile machine. However, it may be more than you need for just chisels and plane irons....With the larger lap, the MKII is faster, due to the "rim speed" ...IIRC, both machines run at around the same RPM..I would just say that, for the money, it is hard to beat the WS. A few Japanese Waterstones could cost you more than the WS and the time saved sharpening by hand { the old fashioned way } could be used woodworking.

Yeah the WS3000 seems like the best value of the two.

Bit of a downer, although insignificant, I was reading the manual and it's rated at 1/5th HP rather than the 1/4 I swear I read somewhere else.

But even at $200 it seems a bit muchy for what kinda resembles a kitchen appliance with a sanding disc on top.

Also it would be fascinating if someone with a thermal camera would figure out a way to demonstrate the effectiveness of the heatsink. My experience with LEDs and computer processors is that without thermal compound, a heatsink's usefulness is sooo much less. I like that it has it, and as far as an angle holder, it may as well have fins and be made of aluminum. 


(01-28-2020, 02:13 PM)hbmcc Wrote: Buy a set (your choice of grit) of King Stones. You can try them out but I suggest leave them in the package and use them for bench ballast. I guess they are pretty cheap, compared, so brick weights won't be so extreme a foolish reminder. 

Second advisory: Don't buy cheap diamond powder, or paste. Get your stone/grit from the pricey side of the world. The cheap source is from the janitor at the factory ... if you are lucky. A good supplier of diamond paste has been Tools For Working Wood, a water soluble paste. [Now, I need to clean up all my diamond plates.....]

Third: Unless you take a tool to the stone shop and test, don't waste time with natural stones.

My two pennies, that cost a whole lot more in reality.

I haven't yet begun to understand the economy of any kind of loose abrasive or paste, regardless of its quality. Someone would have to explain it to me like I'm a 5 year old. It appears a noticeable amount of a very small quantity is consumed each time any kind of sharpening is done. Any unused portion is wiped away and tossed. Considering the same diamond or CBN abrasive can be electroplated to a piece of steel and used thousands of times without damage to the steel...  Maybe the lapping plates are flatter in the short run? Seems there is a difference in flatness between my DMT and Atoma diamond plates, even though I can't measure it. It could be the waterstones are simply dishing that fast because I'm not using the Atoma directly on a tool, it's strictly used as a flatting plate for the stones.

If I ever buy a natural stone, it would be because I won the lottery which I don't buy tickets to. I've seen those stones listed for thousands. of. dollars. Makes no sense. But even with the more reasonable ones, it's unclear what you'll get, because they don't know what they're selling.

I did see something funny regarding boron nitride powder. Apparently, it's also being sold as a healthy skin friendly mineral in beauty products.



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#97
  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie ([quote='Timberwolf' ...)
(01-28-2020, 04:18 PM)Robin Dobbie Wrote: Yeah the WS3000 seems like the best value of the two.

Bit of a downer, although insignificant, I was reading the manual and it's rated at 1/5th HP rather than the 1/4 I swear I read somewhere else.

But even at $200 it seems a bit muchy for what kinda resembles a kitchen appliance with a sanding disc on top.

Also it would be fascinating if someone with a thermal camera would figure out a way to demonstrate the effectiveness of the heatsink. My experience with LEDs and computer processors is that without thermal compound, a heatsink's usefulness is sooo much less. I like that it has it, and as far as an angle holder, it may as well have fins and be made of aluminum. 



I haven't yet begun to understand the economy of any kind of loose abrasive or paste, regardless of its quality. Someone would have to explain it to me like I'm a 5 year old. It appears a noticeable amount of a very small quantity is consumed each time any kind of sharpening is done. Any unused portion is wiped away and tossed. Considering the same diamond or CBN abrasive can be electroplated to a piece of steel and used thousands of times without damage to the steel...  Maybe the lapping plates are flatter in the short run? Seems there is a difference in flatness between my DMT and Atoma diamond plates, even though I can't measure it. It could be the waterstones are simply dishing that fast because I'm not using the Atoma directly on a tool, it's strictly used as a flatting plate for the stones.

If I ever buy a natural stone, it would be because I won the lottery which I don't buy tickets to. I've seen those stones listed for thousands. of. dollars. Makes no sense. But even with the more reasonable ones, it's unclear what you'll get, because they don't know what they're selling.

I did see something funny regarding boron nitride powder. Apparently, it's also being sold as a healthy skin friendly mineral in beauty products.




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Bit of a downer, although insignificant, I was reading the manual and it's rated at 1/5th HP rather than the 1/4 I swear I read somewhere else.

But even at $200 it seems a bit muchy for what kinda resembles a kitchen appliance with a sanding disc on top.

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They're like most other things..priced at what the market will bear...I imagine the MKII will be around long after the WS is in the scrap pile...The value is in the time it can save...and the WS is much cheaper to use than fancy Waterstones that seem to have cast a magical spell on some woodworkers.. They have plenty of power for what they're intended....letting the abrasive do the work..IMO if you stall the motor, you're pressing the tool down too hard.
I love the Corps for those intangible possessions that cannot be
issued: pride, honor, integrity, and being able to carry on the
traditions for generations of warriors past. [Cpl. Jeff Sornij, USMC;
in Navy Times, November 1994]


Jack Edgar, Sgt. USMC Korean War 51/52
Get off my lawn ! Upset





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#98
  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie ([quote='Timberwolf' ...)
(01-28-2020, 04:18 PM)Robin Dobbie Wrote: I haven't yet begun to understand the economy of any kind of loose abrasive or paste, regardless of its quality. Someone would have to explain it to me like I'm a 5 year old. It appears a noticeable amount of a very small quantity is consumed each time any kind of sharpening is done. Any unused portion is wiped away and tossed. Considering the same diamond or CBN abrasive can be electroplated to a piece of steel and used thousands of times without damage to the steel... 

I have a piece of cast iron I got for free.  I had it surface ground at a local community college for free.  The instructor in the industrial machining program uses projects like this as real world experience for his students. It was ground to five tenths of flat.  That’s pretty good.  I got two tubes of diamond paste, one at 3 microns and the other at 1 micron.  Maybe $20 together.  That was 7-8 years ago.  About a third of the 3 micron paste has been used and much less of the 1 micron.  I don’t clean the plate each time I use it, only when it stops cutting.  That maybe every 2 or 3 times.  Then a wipe-down with WD40, reapply fresh paste, about half the size of a pea, and we’re good to go.  I have since found that lapidary supply stores sell diamond paste cheaper.

You’ve been chasing this goal for a long time.  Get something and see what you can do with it.

The very best woodworker I’ve ever seen uses one stone, an 800 grit King waterstone, and he says if you need more than that you simply don’t know what you’re doing.  He makes museum quality stuff.  If it’s good enough for him...
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#99
  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Timberwolf ([quote='Robin Dobbie...)
(01-28-2020, 05:20 PM)Timberwolf Wrote: Waterstones that seem to have cast a magical spell on some woodworkers..

I don't know if you know this, but when you use waterstones, it makes anime real. lol But seriously, I got them because I wanted the renewable surface and they have higher grits. People claim they cut faster than oil stones, but I dunno. Also, since waterstones are higher grit, so theoretically between the faster cutting and the higher grit, the implication could be that the tools last longer? I guess that doesn't matter that much to me at the moment, I'm using $50(really $20) woodcraft chisels and the plane irons that came with the planes. Maybe if I had a set of PMV11 god-like tools I'd care. I think I should have just gotten diamond stones for everything. Especially now that I know about those $10-$20 diamond discs you told us about. I was reading about the 3000 grit discs and that they're probably closer to 1000, but you seemed pretty happy with yours, so at some point I'll probably try a set. 

Quote: They have plenty of power for what they're intended....letting the abrasive do the work..IMO if you stall the motor, you're pressing the tool down too hard.

You're probably right. I do know when drilling metal that the bits last longer with slower RPM and more pressure. Less heat more cutting. I guess that doesn't translate to all kinds of sharpening? I remember I have to really bear down on my diamond plate to get it to do anything, and it's 220/320 grit.
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  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Bruce Haugen ([quote='Robin Dobbie...)
(01-28-2020, 05:33 PM)Bruce Haugen Wrote: You’ve been chasing this goal for a long time.  Get something and see what you can do with it.

Like a few people, you've missed the point of the thread. To reiterate, it was initially humor, now it's just commentary and Q&A on various sharpening methods. I appreciate the peptalk. Sounds like you got a good deal on that cast iron plate and its flattening. Pretty good indeed. Do you have a link to the diamond paste you've got? What I've seen regarding cleaning up after every use is that the paste can harden, and then it doesn't matter how flat your plate is. It could just be one particular brand, or false marketing to get people to buy more paste?
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