Affording good sharpening stones
#31
  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
(01-08-2020, 08:30 AM)wmickley Wrote: ... he came over to me and told me I would never be able to get a good edge without using his jig.

Wow. What's depressing is how many new and inexperienced people might given that any credence. I think he's got a neat jig, and I like gadgets in general, but that's too polarizing of a sales technique for me. Would have turned me off.

Quote:I would say Shapton stones are a poor choice because they are very harsh. They were designed to work quickly at a given grit, but the downside is they also leave a rough edge that performs poorly at that grit. Gaudy numbers, but poor quality.

I have zero experience with actually using other waterstones. When I sharpen to just 5000 with the shapton, I can not discern any texture on the cutting edge. The surface of the bevel and backs aren't quite a perfect mirror, but I can see my reflection. I may try some honing compound on some leather or MDF, but I feel the limiting factor at this point is me, not the grit
of these rocks.

I got the shaptons because of the price and the fact I knew they came in the little plastic tote that seems to have protected them in shipping. Bad juju or no, they at least survived shipping.

(01-08-2020, 10:56 AM)Timberwolf Wrote: Karl Holtey.

Wow. Makes Bridge City look like Walmart. Now that it's Chinese owned, I suppose it is.
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#32
  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
I reviewed the original Sharp Skate in 2007. Hap sent me one on request, after I had viewed his DVD.

The article is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews...Skate.html

It is an interesting honing guide. From memory, it was developed to mimic the side sharpening method. I commented on this in the review, noting that it was not Harrelson Stanley's discovery (and no where did he claim this), however it was the first time I had come across someone sharing the method in print and video.

My experience of Hap was very positive. I certainly did not find him to be a blowhard, but rather a passionate individual. His business was (still is?) selling Shapton waterstones, but I doubt he has become rich from designing and manufacturing the Sharp Skate.

Hap described his jointing technique to me all those years ago, which he had not yet written about. I tried it, but it seemed an unnecessary extra step, in that I did not find any advantage at the time. Perhaps I should re-visit it. At that time I did not appreciate what he was on about. This thread has re-awakened the memory, and reminded me of my thoughts that sharp is smooth, and any remaining wire or edge torn from removing the wire forcefully, will leave a less smooth edge.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at http://www.inthewoodshop.com
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#33
  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Derek Cohen (I reviewed the origi...)
(01-09-2020, 04:32 PM)Derek Cohen Wrote: My experience of Hap was very positive. I certainly did not find him to be a blowhard, but rather a passionate individual. His business was (still is?) selling Shapton waterstones, but I doubt he has become rich from designing and manufacturing the Sharp Skate.

Derek

Shapton no longer distributes through Hap. He is now associated with a product called Nano-Hone.  The founder of Shapton passed away, and his son took over.  Hap got cross-wise with the son and the relationship was severed.  Several companies are now authorized to sell Shapton stones directly procured from Shapton.
Still Learning,

Allan Hill
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#34
  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
Stanley sharpens the way he was taught when he apprenticed to a Japanese master in Japan. He uses Japanese chisels and blades, so they are generally laminated and have only a primary bevel. He is merely sticking with what he's been taught. He explains in one of his videos why he believes the side sharpening method is superior to the more conventional method. It has to do with how a burr is formed and what happens when it breaks off. I've gotten equal edges from my Japanese paring chisels from either method.

I used Shaptons before I switched to Sigma Power stones. I used Norton stones prior to that. I don't get any sharper with the Sigma stones than I did with Nortons or Shaptons, but the Sigmas do cut much quicker than the Shaptons. At the higher grits, I get a very, very sharp edge. I used a 15x loupe for a time to check my progress and could not tell the difference between an edge produced on a Norton, Shapton, or Sigma. It all boils down to what grit you finish off with, and how long you spend at each grit before you progress to the next. I never found any of my water stones to leave a jagged or grabby edge. There is benefit in use of an edge tool to getting a very sharp edge and maintaining that edge, but at some point, you get to the point of diminishing returns. An edge honed to 30,000 grit, for example, will probably degrade to the equivalent of an edge honed to 8000 grit in a handful of swipes on a hard wood. It really doesn't take much to change the geometry of the edge of a tool honed with a super fine grit. Those edges are very thin and therefore very fragile.
Still Learning,

Allan Hill
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#35
  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
How do we get into these "sharp, sharper, sharpest, scariest, super scariest" and, "it's too sharp; dull it so I don't cut my fingers off" discussions? 

And, while we are at it, why do scrapers do what the sharpest blades can't? All it takes is a stupid file and the edge of a screwdriver shank. You know some of the sharpest tools are made from rocks using a bone. They cut flesh and bone viciously easy.

Robin, I think you have the solution. Go steal some bricks from your neighbors and sharpen away!
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#36
  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
(01-09-2020, 10:09 PM)hbmcc Wrote: How do we get into these "sharp, sharper, sharpest, scariest, super scariest" and, "it's too sharp; dull it so I don't cut my fingers off" discussions?

The presence of expensive sharpening equipment and differing, STRONGLY differing opinions on basic principles? I was just reading pages and pages of people arguing about whether or not to hollow grind Japanese chisels on a 10" wet grinder. I think I'm on Team Wetgrinder, even though I don't have one, or Japanese tools.

I also started reading a Krenov book. At my level it's akin to a preschooler reading post-graduate philosophical ramblings. Krenov claimed to not even know the grit of his stones. It sounds like he was using naturally quarried stones, since he would find some areas of a stone to cut finer than others.
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#37
  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by hbmcc (How do we get into t...)
(01-09-2020, 10:09 PM)hbmcc Wrote: How do we get into these "sharp, sharper, sharpest, scariest, super scariest" and, "it's too sharp; dull it so I don't cut my fingers off" discussions? 

And, while we are at it, why do scrapers do what the sharpest blades can't? All it takes is a stupid file and the edge of a screwdriver shank. You know some of the sharpest tools are made from rocks using a bone. They cut flesh and bone viciously easy.

Robin, I think you have the solution. Go steal some bricks from your neighbors and sharpen away!

I guess I should ditch my chisels and hand planes in favor of a scraper and a couple of stone tools.

But I won't.
Still Learning,

Allan Hill
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#38
  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
Speaking of stone tools and reverting to basics, I was just watching a video featuring a guy in India making grindstones. He's just sitting on the ground, shoeless, no goggles, chipping away at large chunks of rock. No power tools, just a hammer and a chisel. I would link to it, but there's also some questionable natgeo-style unclothedness when his kid walks up with no undergarments.







That, along with the knowledge that some people are having at least some success with just a smooth brick, has anyone seen anyone make their own sharpening stones? Or sharpening wheels? I know the grindstones above are for grains or whatever.

I know a common abrasive is aluminum oxide. I looked at aluminum oxide blast media and the price varies quite a bit. Obviously finer particles are more expensive. I didn't do an extensive price analysis, but one site was charging close to $300 for 50lb of 1200 mesh. Harbor freight sells 50lb of 70 grit for $45. So I wonder if that in a tumbler would create finer grit? I was looking at sieves down to 5-micron and they're like $25. Seems like a lot of the tools are really inexpensive. Not to say that it would even be worth the time to do, but I'm still surprised I don't see people doing it. Not to say they're not, I'm just unaware.
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#39
  Re: RE: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (Speaking of stone to...)
(01-10-2020, 11:16 PM)Robin Dobbie Wrote: Speaking of stone tools and reverting to basics, I was just watching a video featuring a guy in India making grindstones. He's just sitting on the ground, shoeless, no goggles, chipping away at large chunks of rock. No power tools, just a hammer and a chisel. I would link to it, but there's also some questionable natgeo-style unclothedness when his kid walks up with no undergarments.







That, along with the knowledge that some people are having at least some success with just a smooth brick, has anyone seen anyone make their own sharpening stones? Or sharpening wheels? I know the grindstones above are for grains or whatever.

I know a common abrasive is aluminum oxide. I looked at aluminum oxide blast media and the price varies quite a bit. Obviously finer particles are more expensive. I didn't do an extensive price analysis, but one site was charging close to $300 for 50lb of 1200 mesh. Harbor freight sells 50lb of 70 grit for $45. So I wonder if that in a tumbler would create finer grit? I was looking at sieves down to 5-micron and they're like $25. Seems like a lot of the tools are really inexpensive. Not to say that it would even be worth the time to do, but I'm still surprised I don't see people doing it. Not to say they're not, I'm just unaware.
......................
I bought boron nitride powder last year....And you can buy it as well as diamond and AO powder from Amazon.
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in Navy Times, November 1994]


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#40
  Re: Affording good sharpening stones by Robin Dobbie (How do you do it? I ...)
Boron nitride, that's the stuff on those CBN wheels I read about recently. So it's second place to diamond as far as absolute hardness, but I'm confused about its other differences. I saw that its thermal conductivity is higher than AO such that it absorbs 60% of the heat generated in grinding vs 10% with AO. This was when the CBN was sintered into cutting inserts for giant metal cutting lathes. But I guess that's how those CBN wet grinder wheels are sold as dry wheels. In fact they say absolutely do not run them in water... what I don't understand with that is where the swarf goes.

So what do you do with it? Just mix it up with some mineral oil on lapping plates?
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