Waterbased top coat failure?
#11
Back in 2016, I refinished a typical antique red oak country style dining table. It involved striping, sanding, staining and top coating.

I used Minwax stain. Two different colors to get the desired color.

For the top coat, I used a General Finishes professional series water-based finish. I checked out their website and did not see a current listing for the product that I used back then.

First issue was in 2017, the customer mentioned that she placed a spray bottle of scent eliminator for deer hunting on the table. The container leaked and left a dark stain. I was surprised in that General Finishes claimed that particular finish to be very tough and chemical resistant. I figured that it must have been an ammonia based product to do that to the finish. I was talking with her today, and she mentioned that the finish seems sticky. When they place a paper plate on the table, it seems to stick to the surface.

I did follow the instructions carefully and feel that I did a good job on finishing that table. It really looked great when I finished it. Now I am afraid that I will be refinishing it to make it right for her. Anyone have a water-based finish fail? I plan on calling General Finishes, but can't remember the exact product that I used. I do know it was from their Professional series and that I had to order it directly from them. I did discuss it here in the Finishing section back then but I believe those posts are long gone.

When I do get around to refinishing that table, what product do you all like for a dinning table the sees hard use? Something that sprays.
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#12
(02-18-2020, 01:05 PM)Scoony Wrote: Back in 2016, I refinished a typical antique red oak country style dining table. It involved striping, sanding, staining and top coating.

I used Minwax stain. Two different colors to get the desired color.

For the top coat, I used a General Finishes professional series water-based finish. I checked out their website and did not see a current listing for the product that I used back then.

First issue was in 2017, the customer mentioned that she placed a spray bottle of scent eliminator for deer hunting on the table. The container leaked and left a dark stain. I was surprised in that General Finishes claimed that particular finish to be very tough and chemical resistant. I figured that it must have been an ammonia based product to do that to the finish. I was talking with her today, and she mentioned that the finish seems sticky. When they place a paper plate on the table, it seems to stick to the surface.

I did follow the instructions carefully and feel that I did a good job on finishing that table. It really looked great when I finished it. Now I am afraid that I will be refinishing it to make it right for her. Anyone have a water-based finish fail? I plan on calling General Finishes, but can't remember the exact product that I used. I do know it was from their Professional series and that I had to order it directly from them. I did discuss it here in the Finishing section back then but I believe those posts are long gone.

When I do get around to refinishing that table, what product do you all like for a dinning table the sees hard use? Something that sprays.

These are the products in GF's Pro Series of WB clearcoats:

Water Based Topcoats and Sanding Sealers
  • Enduro Clear Poly

  • Enduro Conversion Varnish

  • Enduro Pre-Cat Lacquer

  • Enduro Water Based Sanding Sealer

  • Enduro-Var Water Based Urethane Topcoat

  • I don't remember any additional ones to this list back in 2016.  The CV may be new, but that's irrelevant.  I've used all the other products, and their order of chemical durability, from best to worst, is EnduroVar, Clear Poly, and then Pre-Cat Lacquer, far behind the first two.  However, any of them can be damaged by exposure to ammonia containing liquids, acetone, and even things like tea if left in contact long enough.  Feeling sticky suggests the lady is using something she shouldn't be to clean the table, and I would ask some more questions to find out.  If you end up having to redo the table top I would use the Conversion Varnish, or a 2K Poly which is about the most durable stuff you can use.  Also, I would not use an OB stain underneath and I would stick with products from one manufacturer.  John  
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#13
(02-18-2020, 01:51 PM)jteneyck Wrote: These are the products in GF's Pro Series of WB clearcoats:

Water Based Topcoats and Sanding Sealers
  • Enduro Clear Poly

  • Enduro Conversion Varnish

  • Enduro Pre-Cat Lacquer

  • Enduro Water Based Sanding Sealer

  • Enduro-Var Water Based Urethane Topcoat

  • I don't remember any additional ones to this list back in 2016.  The CV may be new, but that's irrelevant.  I've used all the other products, and their order of chemical durability, from best to worst, is EnduroVar, Clear Poly, and then Pre-Cat Lacquer, far behind the first two.  However, any of them can be damaged by exposure to ammonia containing liquids, acetone, and even things like tea if left in contact long enough.  Feeling sticky suggests the lady is using something she shouldn't be to clean the table, and I would ask some more questions to find out.  If you end up having to redo the table top I would use the Conversion Varnish, or a 2K Poly which is about the most durable stuff you can use.  Also, I would not use an OB stain underneath and I would stick with products from one manufacturer.  John  

It may have been the High Performance Poly, but I know that I had to order it online, as it was not a product that Woodcraft carried. Came in a dark blue can.  She claims she uses just a wet cloth to clean the table; already asked that question.
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#14
(02-18-2020, 02:55 PM)Scoony Wrote: It may have been the High Performance Poly, but I know that I had to order it online, as it was not a product that Woodcraft carried. Came in a dark blue can.  She claims she uses just a wet cloth to clean the table; already asked that question.

High Performance Poly used to come in a green can, but they switched to blue in the past couple of years, so.....  If I had to guess, that would be the product I'd suspect first because it has the lowest chemical resistance of those products.  EnduroVar used to be in a black can; now it's blue.  Clear Poly has always (?) been in a blue can.  PreCat Lacquer has always been in some sort of red can, so we know it's not that one. Clear Poly is a spray only finish; HP Poly and EnduroVar can be sprayed or brushed.  Any of that ring a bell?  

If the table is sticky now and all she has used to clean it is a wet cloth (wet only with water, I assume but wonder) then either the finish reacted with the stain underneath or maybe she has a foam pad or place mats on the table much of the time and the plasticizers in them are reacting.  None of those products will get sticky on their own.  

You might consider Target Coatings EM-8000CV conversion varnish as another option if you refinish it.  It's a pre-catalyzed CV, but you can add their Cross Linker to it to further improve hardness and durability.  GF used to sell a cross linker but stopped a few years ago for some reason.  

John
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#15
It was not the Enduro. Probably was the Clear Poly. I searched old photos and found one with the can on the bench, but not clear enough to tell what it was.
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#16
My go to for re-coating is first sanding/scuffing then a light coat of de-waxed shellac (usually SealCoat) and then my final finish.

SealCoat seems to bind with most substrates and most finished will bind well to shellac.

The one exception was painting PPG's Breakthrough! 250 over shellac.  It caused the paint to craze.  So test first.  But shellac makes an excellent "primer" for clear finishes.
No animals were injured or killed in the production of this post.
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#17
(02-19-2020, 03:17 PM)Cooler Wrote: My go to for re-coating is first sanding/scuffing then a light coat of de-waxed shellac (usually SealCoat) and then my final finish.

SealCoat seems to bind with most substrates and most finished will bind well to shellac.

The one exception was painting PPG's Breakthrough! 250 over shellac.  It caused the paint to craze.  So test first.  But shellac makes an excellent "primer" for clear finishes.

I have gone through my share of SealCoat as well as garnet flakes. 

I really should take good notes of all my builds and the finish schedule used. Of course, I have not been building stuff lately like I did in the past, but slowly getting back into the groove.
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#18
(02-19-2020, 08:32 PM)Scoony Wrote: I have gone through my share of SealCoat as well as garnet flakes. 

I really should take good notes of all my builds and the finish schedule used. Of course, I have not been building stuff lately like I did in the past, but slowly getting back into the groove.

This ^.  I keep a notebook with a folder in it for every project.  Drawings, materials and hardware, notes, and the complete finish schedule.  

John
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#19
(02-18-2020, 01:51 PM)jteneyck Wrote: These are the products in GF's Pro Series of WB clearcoats:

Water Based Topcoats and Sanding Sealers
  • Enduro Clear Poly

  • Enduro Conversion Varnish

  • Enduro Pre-Cat Lacquer

  • Enduro Water Based Sanding Sealer

  • Enduro-Var Water Based Urethane Topcoat

  • I don't remember any additional ones to this list back in 2016.  The CV may be new, but that's irrelevant.  I've used all the other products, and their order of chemical durability, from best to worst, is EnduroVar, Clear Poly, and then Pre-Cat Lacquer, far behind the first two.  However, any of them can be damaged by exposure to ammonia containing liquids, acetone, and even things like tea if left in contact long enough.  Feeling sticky suggests the lady is using something she shouldn't be to clean the table, and I would ask some more questions to find out.  If you end up having to redo the table top I would use the Conversion Varnish, or a 2K Poly which is about the most durable stuff you can use.  Also, I would not use an OB stain underneath and I would stick with products from one manufacturer.  John  
John, can either of the top two on your list be wiped on?

Thanks
Chuck
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#20
(02-20-2020, 09:06 AM)cbygeorge Wrote: John, can either of the top two on your list be wiped on?

Thanks
Chuck

You mean Clear Poly or Conversion Varnish?  Maybe the Clear Poly.  Technically, it's a spray only product, but I've brushed it on small projects without trouble.  But wiping it on, I have no clue.  The CV I would really doubt.  

Minwax make a WB wipe on Poly.  Never tried it, but it might meet your needs.  

John
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