dining chair rehab

[ed kerns]

I have used a two step repair with success.

First remove all old glue and wrap a veneer(wet with glue) ribbon tightly around the tenon. When the glue has dried, sand so that the joint is a tight fit.

Second, saw a slit centered on the tenon. Then slip a blind wedge slightly shorter than the tenon in the slit then add glue to the mortise and clamp the joint.

I hope this is clear.

Dave

I understand perfectly Dave, thank you. I had one joint that I felt needed this treatment and it worked just as advertised.

[Dave Crow]

I understand perfectly Dave, thank you. I had one joint that I felt needed this treatment and it worked just as advertised.

Nice!

Your welcome,
Dave

[PaulM85]

In a revolting turn of events I've gotten roped into rebuilding a set of dining room chairs. Every joint (mostly dowel joints) is loose, and over the years, someone has done their best to repair with assorted nails, screws and mending plates. I have just disassembled the first chair, removed all unneeded hardware and am contemplating putting it back together. My question is about how to handle all the old joints. Can I just clean up the old glue, grab my jug of TB2 and re-clamp? The wood surrounding the joints is still sound, but there has been some wear. Should I consider a thicker adhesive, with some gap filling ability? I've built a few chairs in my day, but working with 50 year old stuff is a whole new ballgame. I'd appreciate any tips!

Ed, 
  I repair chairs all the time, I worked in a furniture repair shop. Chairs are bread and butter jobs, I had a few days I did 8 to 10 glue ups. I've done thousands. I currently have 5 in my shop now. 4 are just repairs like yours, one has a spindle tenon chewed off by a dog.  Never use Gorilla glue on a chair, we wouldn't work on furniture that was repaired previously with it. Get yourself a bottle of Titebond Original that's all you need. A good glue up will last over 50 years and it's repairable and reversible in the future if its needed. Gorilla glue penetrates the fibers and blocks them from absorbing glue again, it ruins furniture. 
   When I do a re-fit glue up like you are talking about, I take the chair apart using as little force as I can to prevent breakage, there are a few tricks to it but hot water injected into the joints works wonders. If it's held together with hide glue use hot water and if that fails use denatured alcohol. It will make the glue crystalize and weaken it. Once you have it apart take a mini paint scraper about one inch wide and scrape the glue all the way around the tenon. Measure the tenon or dowel, if it's a standard size 1/2, 3/8 etc., take a forstner bit and clean out the mortise. blow out the mortice with an air hose. If it's an odd ball size use a 1/8 inch chisel and scrape out the glue carefully. You want the joints as snug as they can be but they do not need to be piston tight, it's nice when they are but if they are a hair loose they will be fine when the glue hardens.  How you glue things up will make the difference between a job that lasts, or a job that lasts 2 or 3 years or less. I use painters tape and number every joint before disassembly. you want the same, dowel, spindle end, leg or apron going back in the same mortice or position, this is very important. Using an acid brush apply glue in the mortice first, then apply glue to the tenon or dowel. not too much but enough to fill the joint. start on one corner of the chair and work your way around, keep in mind how it has to go together, sometimes you have to build assemblies that have trapped spindles first then add them to the chair. If dowels are broken, damaged or they shrank, replace them. If a tenon is damaged, glue veneer or wood on and fit them. I rarely clamp chairs, put the chair together and set them on a flat floor, check the joints are still in place and leave them alone. Check for glue runs and clean off any glue that shows. Clamp only if necessary. 
 Use epoxy as sparingly as possible, it has qualities that make future repairs very difficult. I've worked on 70 to over 100 year old antiques put together with hide glue that had joints that are still solid. If your glue joints fail early, they were done wrong.  

Paul
Bel Air, MD

[hcbph]

I'd like to reiterate Paul and Dave's comments, both are excellent.  Had my own shop for over 30 years and did repairs for 5 different shops also who couldn't or didn't have the time or manpower for repairs, and done thousands of chairs over the years (oldest was from 1500's).  One suggestion Dave didn't mention was if you cut a slot in a tenon, do it across the grain, not with it to prevent splitting when the wedge goes in.  If chairs were done with hide glue, best to use hide glue in repairing.  Avoid epoxy and Gorilla glue as they are not for furniture. Another suggestion is if you "have to" make a new tenon for a stretcher, make a step tenon to keep as much strength as you can in the part (cut vent slots in the tenon going into the part to allow venting and reduce the chance to splitting the stretcher.  When adding wedges to parts, try not to insert them 'with the grain' if possible to prevent splitting.

[ed kerns]

Really some excellent advice here guys - thank you all!
Paul, I'm about half way through the chair repairs and have been pretty much following the techniques you shared. It's interesting because of 8 chairs I've been asked to fix, only 2 are matching. I'm especially pleased to hear your testament for TB2. I've never cared for Gorilla Glue for wood joints and so far almost every joint I've re-glued has been a decent fit. It's been a good education for me. Amazing how some joints will be literally falling apart, while others hold on for dear life. Even the stubborn joints I've been able to disassemble with a little heat, moisture and enough taps with my trusty Harbor Freight dead blow hammer.
I'm curious, those of you who repaired chairs in a shop setting, what would you estimate the 'average' repair cost to be? I quoted $50 per chair with the understanding that I might have to adjust that, once repairs were under way. The first one probably took me 3 hours, but the last couple have been about an hour and a half of actual work. I suspect my price is low. but mine is just a hobby shop, and some of the time I have to chalk up to tuition costs.

[hcbph]

I'm curious, those of you who repaired chairs in a shop setting, what would you estimate the 'average' repair cost to be? I quoted $50 per chair with the understanding that I might have to adjust that, once repairs were under way. The first one probably took me 3 hours, but the last couple have been about an hour and a half of actual work. I suspect my price is low. but mine is just a hobby shop, and some of the time I have to chalk up to tuition costs.

If you planned to put food on the table, $50 a chair is light unless you keep the shop full.  If on the other hand you're just doing it for fun, that's tool money.  On average I could do an average dr chair in an hour or so.
I had a sliding scale depending on the shop.  Those that sent a lot of work, I might give them a little break figuring I could make it up in volume, and it paid off for me.  If the chairs were full of hardware (nails and screws), they cost more.  Broken tenons and chewed up mortises also cost more.  One other thing is how much competition you have in the area, you may have to adjust accordingly.  If you plan to do it commercially, don't under price your work to get work.  If you do, it's hard to elevate your prices to reasonable levels later, IMO better to pass on some than lock yourself into unreasonable prices.  It's hard to do definitely prices without knowing more on what's going on in your area.
Good luck down the road.

[ed kerns]

If you planned to put food on the table, $50 a chair is light unless you keep the shop full.  If on the other hand you're just doing it for fun, that's tool money.  On average I could do an average dr chair in an hour or so.
I had a sliding scale depending on the shop.  Those that sent a lot of work, I might give them a little break figuring I could make it up in volume, and it paid off for me.  If the chairs were full of hardware (nails and screws), they cost more.  Broken tenons and chewed up mortises also cost more.  One other thing is how much competition you have in the area, you may have to adjust accordingly.  If you plan to do it commercially, don't under price your work to get work.  If you do, it's hard to elevate your prices to reasonable levels later, IMO better to pass on some than lock yourself into unreasonable prices.  It's hard to do definitely prices without knowing more on what's going on in your area.
Good luck down the road.

Definitely not trying to feed myself with this work, I just run a hobby shop that occasionally takes on the odd job or two. I build lots of stuff, but haven't done much repair work -and it has been an education. I appreciate what you're saying about the chairs being full of hardware. I've removed enough mending plates and extraneous screws and nails to stock a hardware store shelf and that does all take time. It is kinda fun, but it was more fun 3 chairs ago. In retrospect, my price seems a little low by about half. I've had to turn and replace a couple of simple spindles, retouch finishes etc. but no worries. If there is a next time, I will be a little wiser. Thank you.

[hcbph]

Definitely not trying to feed myself with this work, I just run a hobby shop that occasionally takes on the odd job or two. I build lots of stuff, but haven't done much repair work -and it has been an education. I appreciate what you're saying about the chairs being full of hardware. I've removed enough mending plates and extraneous screws and nails to stock a hardware store shelf and that does all take time. It is kinda fun, but it was more fun 3 chairs ago. In retrospect, my price seems a little low by about half. I've had to turn and replace a couple of simple spindles, retouch finishes etc. but no worries. If there is a next time, I will be a little wiser. Thank you.

Ed
Here's a little more advice, some learned the hard way.  Even with friends, get something in writing on what's expected and what you're planning to do.  It helps put expectations in line.  Now the big things: a license and insurance.  Be careful if the city finds out you're doing repairs not in a commercial zone or no license, you can be fined or shut down.  People can be 'sue happy' at times.  Their expectations may not line up with reality, and they may run to a lawyer if they think you wrecked Grandpa's favorite chair.  Personally I live in an area zoned commercial and I actually liked doing subcontracting work through other shops as I could do work under their insurance and license plus they had to deal with the customers, not me.
Sounds like you ran into some chairs with hardware, so if you haven't already then get yourself a good metal detector.  I's amazing how some craftsmen in the past could hide nails.  I have both a Lumber Wizard and a Little Wizard, and at times one will find metal the other didn't.
If you don't feel comfortable with a job, pass on it.  To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, I once had a designer come to me about fixing a historically significant (meaning it cost in the 6 figures) table to use in a lawyers office conference room.  I spent over a month trying to talk him out of his planned modifications but he wanted it at whatever cost.  I could not disassemble the table without likely damaging the materials (breaking and splitting the 200+ year old boards in the top) which necessitated cutting it apart in unseen areas.  He agreed to the plans and signed an agreement to that effect.  It looked good from the outside but underneath you immediately  could tell what had been done in putting it back together.  In effect, I turned a $100,000 table into a $10,000 table, but he was totally pleased with the results as was the lawyer from what I was told.  It wasn't that I couldn't do the job, it was more the financial hit that would happen the moment I had to cut the first piece to get it apart.
That's my 2 cents worth of advice.

[ed kerns]

Ed
Here's a little more advice, some learned the hard way.  Even with friends, get something in writing on what's expected and what you're planning to do.  It helps put expectations in line.  Now the big things: a license and insurance.  Be careful if the city finds out you're doing repairs not in a commercial zone or no license, you can be fined or shut down.  People can be 'sue happy' at times.  Their expectations may not line up with reality, and they may run to a lawyer if they think you wrecked Grandpa's favorite chair.  Personally I live in an area zoned commercial and I actually liked doing subcontracting work through other shops as I could do work under their insurance and license plus they had to deal with the customers, not me.
Sounds like you ran into some chairs with hardware, so if you haven't already then get yourself a good metal detector.  I's amazing how some craftsmen in the past could hide nails.  I have both a Lumber Wizard and a Little Wizard, and at times one will find metal the other didn't.
If you don't feel comfortable with a job, pass on it.  To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, I once had a designer come to me about fixing a historically significant (meaning it cost in the 6 figures) table to use in a lawyers office conference room.  I spent over a month trying to talk him out of his planned modifications but he wanted it at whatever cost.  I could not disassemble the table without likely damaging the materials (breaking and splitting the 200+ year old boards in the top) which necessitated cutting it apart in unseen areas.  He agreed to the plans and signed an agreement to that effect.  It looked good from the outside but underneath you immediately  could tell what had been done in putting it back together.  In effect, I turned a $100,000 table into a $10,000 table, but he was totally pleased with the results as was the lawyer from what I was told.  It wasn't that I couldn't do the job, it was more the financial hit that would happen the moment I had to cut the first piece to get it apart.
That's my 2 cents worth of advice.

Sounds like darn good advice at twice the price! Thank you!!

[Wild Turkey]

When "Gorilla Glue" first came out I had an old wooden office chair that was coming apart.  

I cleaned it up and applied glue as instructed, put chair back in my "office" and all went well --- for a while.

A few years later one day I wiggled a bit and chair came back apart.  Every glue joint I had "fixed" had come apart from the flexing and stress.