Powermatic 64A - should I upgrade?
#29
  Re: RE: Powermatic 64A - should I upgrade? by Tapper ([quote='PaulM85' pid...)
(04-02-2021, 11:44 PM)Tapper Wrote: Sorry Paul, but I've heard all this drivel about shop safety relative to tablesaws here and elsewhere for years now. Nobody here that I've heard is recommending that any woodworker NOT practice shop safety. The statement stands. Of course I meant catastrophic injury as regards accidentally touching the spinning blade with your fingers, hands, arm, etc. etc. That's how most catastrophic injuries occur using tablesaws - the statistics bear it out every year (nothing foolish about this). These statistics are gathered directly from records of visits by the injured to hospital emergency rooms and other medical care facilities.

I've heard all the excuses you can possibly dream up as to why someone should not buy a Sawstop tablesaw. NONE of them hold water IMO. This discussion is not about jointers, planers, drill presses, power hand tools, shapers - name your dangerous tool of choice. It is about tablesaws. While serious injury can result from many tools in the shop, records show the tablesaw to be the primary culprit. And of course you can be seriously injured by a kickback from ANY tablesaw. Again, not the point.

BTW, I don't really care whether the Sawstop naysayers buy one or not. Take your chances, maybe you'll be lucky; I certainly hope so. But I'll guarantee you one thing for certain - ask anyone who's had a catastrophic injury on a tablesaw (as in amputations or mutilation) whether they wish they would've spent a little extra cash for a Sawstop - I think the answer is evident. 

Doug

  Doug, 
 I own a woodwork and furniture repair business. I am also President of a public woodshop that currently has over 140 members and 21 foreman. I have instructed many people on shop safety. I and my volunteer foreman do our best to keep everyone safe. Over the past decade I have spent literally thousands of hours in a working woodshop. I do the shops equipment maintenance, repair and purchasing too. I'm pretty well versed in the mistakes that people make and the results from them. I serviced our PCS saw monthly for years, repaired it several times and have spoken at length with Sawstop Techs several times. I bet I'm more knowledgeable about the inner workings of a Sawstop than you are. I also have experience with other brands and I offered my opinion based on my experience. I understand that owning a Sawstop makes you feel safer and more confident in your shop, that's entirely your choice, but that doesn't mean everyone else wants or needs one. I am confident that I and others can and will operate a tablesaw without the Sawstop technology without suffering a catastrophic injury, just like I drive a truck, operate a tractor and chainsaw by using safe practices and thinking about what I'm doing. I am sure there are plenty of other woodworkers here that still use their father's or grandfather's saw and amazingly still have their fingers and hands still attached. There's always going to be risk in life, my brother likes to to go skydiving, that's not an activity i will risk. His choice, I don't tell him how to live. I often fell trees alone, I work alone, that's my choice and sort of just how my schedule works out sometimes. My brother won't fell trees unless his son is around. Everyone gets to make his own choices. Don't think that you know what my opinions are on a topic just because you read and took offense to one post I made. I have never told anyone not to buy a Sawstop.  

There can be benefit to using a Sawstop, I have nothing against them. In our public shop it's clearly the saw that is the safest for some of our woodworking members and it does make some of them feel better knowing it has that feature. It also reduces liability risk for the shop. What risk I balance in my shop as for safety, durability, machine quality and service needs is my choice, and what others balance in their shops is their choice. I never said "Don't buy a Sawstop," I said there are options to chose from. Not everyone has over 3 grand to spend on a Sawstop, Unisaw or a PM2000, the PM1000 is between $2,200 and $2,300. It could be the difference between someone getting a cabinet saw or not being able to afford one. I never accused anyone of saying "Don't practice shop safety." I said to teach and preach shop safety and it will become second nature. I also said using your head is better than depending on technology. I believe that Powermatic's dual riving knife system is more likely to reduce a chance of kickback than Sawstop's single knife system. I think I'm still entitled to point out a difference that I don't believe you even knew existed, as well as other features that do make a difference to some people. People have a right to know that there's more of a difference beyond just the Sawstop technology. Here's to good times in the shop, whatever tablesaw your using. 

Paul
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#30
  Re: RE: Powermatic 64A - should I upgrade? by PaulM85 ([quote='Tapper' pid=...)
(04-03-2021, 11:32 PM)PaulM85 Wrote:   Doug, 
 I own a woodwork and furniture repair business. I am also President of a public woodshop that currently has over 140 members and 21 foreman. I have instructed many people on shop safety. I and my volunteer foreman do our best to keep everyone safe. Over the past decade I have spent literally thousands of hours in a working woodshop. I do the shops equipment maintenance, repair and purchasing too. I'm pretty well versed in the mistakes that people make and the results from them. I serviced our PCS saw monthly for years, repaired it several times and have spoken at length with Sawstop Techs several times. I bet I'm more knowledgeable about the inner workings of a Sawstop than you are. I also have experience with other brands and I offered my opinion based on my experience. I understand that owning a Sawstop makes you feel safer and more confident in your shop, that's entirely your choice, but that doesn't mean everyone else wants or needs one. I am confident that I and others can and will operate a tablesaw without the Sawstop technology without suffering a catastrophic injury, just like I drive a truck, operate a tractor and chainsaw by using safe practices and thinking about what I'm doing. I am sure there are plenty of other woodworkers here that still use their father's or grandfather's saw and amazingly still have their fingers and hands still attached. There's always going to be risk in life, my brother likes to to go skydiving, that's not an activity i will risk. His choice, I don't tell him how to live. I often fell trees alone, I work alone, that's my choice and sort of just how my schedule works out sometimes. My brother won't fell trees unless his son is around. Everyone gets to make his own choices. Don't think that you know what my opinions are on a topic just because you read and took offense to one post I made. I have never told anyone not to buy a Sawstop.  

There can be benefit to using a Sawstop, I have nothing against them. In our public shop it's clearly the saw that is the safest for some of our woodworking members and it does make some of them feel better knowing it has that feature. It also reduces liability risk for the shop. What risk I balance in my shop as for safety, durability, machine quality and service needs is my choice, and what others balance in their shops is their choice. I never said "Don't buy a Sawstop," I said there are options to chose from. Not everyone has over 3 grand to spend on a Sawstop, Unisaw or a PM2000, the PM1000 is between $2,200 and $2,300. It could be the difference between someone getting a cabinet saw or not being able to afford one. I never accused anyone of saying "Don't practice shop safety." I said to teach and preach shop safety and it will become second nature. I also said using your head is better than depending on technology. I believe that Powermatic's dual riving knife system is more likely to reduce a chance of kickback than Sawstop's single knife system. I think I'm still entitled to point out a difference that I don't believe you even knew existed, as well as other features that do make a difference to some people. People have a right to know that there's more of a difference beyond just the Sawstop technology. Here's to good times in the shop, whatever tablesaw your using. 

Paul

Paul, I will concede that you probably know more about the technical attributes of a Sawstop tablesaw (any model) than I do and obviously have waaaay more experience operating a tablesaw in general, since mine has always been in my home shop . I guess my reply is "so what?" Do a search on these pages for this topic and ALL the things you've said have been said before by Sawstop naysayers. Your overriding message (as I see it) is that if you practice PERFECT safety procedures for the rest of your life you PROBABLY will not be injured by the spinning blade on a tablesaw of any brand. I will give you that one. However, that's precisely why Sawstop technology was developed by Steve Gass. NO ONE is perfect all the time, especially as one ages (DAMHIKT). 

When I think of Sawstop that old FedEx ad comes to mind, i.e. "when it absolutely, positively has to be there on time" - drove the USPS nuts! Sawstop, when you absolutely, positively know you can avoid a catastrophic accident from accidentally touching the spinning blade. 

BTW, have I made an untrue statement thus far?  

Have you advised your brother to leave his reserve chute behind since he is a very careful skydiver?

Will you allow your children and/or grandchildren to ride in your vehicle without fastening their safety belts? Have you disabled the air bags in your vehicle because you consider yourself a safe driver?

Just think of the Sawstop safety feature as a reserve chute or safety belts and crash bags. Makes more sense that way. Again, I'm only advocating that those in the market for a new tablesaw consider a Sawstop. I think the reasons for buying one are compelling. If they choose not to, as I said earlier good luck to them and I hope they never have a serious accident. Sawstop just ensures they won't, at least from a spinning blade.

Doug
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#31
  Re: Powermatic 64A - should I upgrade? by Hardwood (I have a Powermatic ...)
So what did you decide
Buying a new one or not?
....the measure of a man is not what he does when others are around, it is what he does when no one is around.....
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#32
  Re: Powermatic 64A - should I upgrade? by Hardwood (I have a Powermatic ...)
I pulled the trigger on a new SawStop today. 

I ordered the 3HP Professional Cabinet Saw with the 36" T-Glide Fence System. I visited the local "show room" (Woodcraft store) on Monday and talked to a salesmen who is actually a SawStop owner. That was very helpful. I decided to get the PCS mobile base and actually was quite impressed with it. The Industrial mobile base was nice, but overkill for my needs. Once I set up my last saw I didn't move it in over 15 years so I questioned why I even needed a mobile base, but decided it would be good insurance to have. 

I went back and forth on dust collection, from the Floating arm to the Over-Arm Dust Collection Assembly, to doing nothing and taking a wait and see approach and then maybe doing something after market like a Shark Guard. I have Shark Guard with my Powermatic 64. I would probably grade it a B- with that saw due to the hassle of putting it on and taking it off. That is more a reflection on the cramped quarters of the Powermatic then the Shark Guard. My wife wanted me to include dust collection so I ended up going with the Over-Arm Dust Collection Assembly. The ease with which I can attach it and then remove it really sold me. Since the Floating arm does not work with the PCS mobile base, that further sealed the deal on the mobile base.

I also added the necessary dado accessories. I was considering the folding outfeed table but after seeing several negative reviews about it not folding up so well, I decided to pass. I will just build one.

Unfortunately, I was given a June 1 date for shipment, so I have to wait awhile. But realistically, I'm in my shop much less during the summer months, so I think I will survive.

Thanks again for all of the input you guys provided!
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#33
  Re: Powermatic 64A - should I upgrade? by Hardwood (I have a Powermatic ...)
Bravo! Congratulations!  Exciting, ain't it?  Cool


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#34
  Re: Powermatic 64A - should I upgrade? by Hardwood (I have a Powermatic ...)
You're gonna love that saw!

Hope it gets delivered quick!
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#35
  Re: Powermatic 64A - should I upgrade? by Hardwood (I have a Powermatic ...)
Another Sawstop data point for you.  I ordered a 3 HP 36" PCS through Woodcraft in Februrary, and I got a call that it's in -- 6 weeks and a day to Northern Virginia.
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#36
  Re: RE: Powermatic 64A - should I upgrade? by merced (Another Sawstop data...)
(04-09-2021, 06:43 PM)merced Wrote: Another Sawstop data point for you.  I ordered a 3 HP 36" PCS through Woodcraft in Februrary, and I got a call that it's in -- 6 weeks and a day to Northern Virginia.

Good for you! The ship date I got is exactly 8 weeks out from when I ordered it. Although I would like it sooner, I can live with that, as long as that is a pretty firm date.  

I got strung along on a major purchase last summer and I thought I would end up in court. And the delay had nothing to do with Covid, it wasn't a supply chain problem, just the incompetence of a particular one man operation. I'm glad to be dealing with a major established retailer on this purchase.
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