Dovetail angle
#31
  Re: RE: Dovetail angle by wmickley ([quote="Handplane...)
<p>
(09-25-2021, 06:38 AM)wmickley Wrote: </p><p>
</p><p><br></p><p>It sounds like you don't even have enough experience to know how skinny dovetails fail.</p><p><br></p><p>They don't fail because of glue failure. The pins&nbsp;just shear off and are usually still left in the drawer side. Still glued.</p><p><br></p><p>Dovetails with excessive angles fail on the drawer side because the dovetail has too much short grain at the edges of the tails.&nbsp;</p><p>

</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>Skinny pins, or normal pins, or fat pins...LOL...and, don't forget about them " fat bottomed Tails" <img src="https://www.forums.woodnet.net/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif" data-sceditor-emoticon="
Laugh" alt="
Laugh" title="
Laugh"> , that would need a black and yellow warning sign.." Caution; WIDE Tail" <img src="https://www.forums.woodnet.net/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" data-sceditor-emoticon="
Smirk" alt="
Smirk" title="
Smirk"> </p><p><br></p><p>Then there is even more fun......Pins or Tails first......always good for 3-4 pages..... <img src="https://www.forums.woodnet.net/images/graemlins/yellowuhoh.gif" data-sceditor-emoticon="
Uhoh" alt="
Uhoh" title="
Uhoh"> <br></p>
Show me a picture, I'll build a project from that
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#32
  Re: RE: Dovetail angle by wmickley ([quote="Handplane...)
<p>
(09-25-2021, 06:38 AM)wmickley Wrote: It sounds like you don't even have enough experience to know how skinny dovetails fail.</p><p><br></p><p>They don't fail because of glue failure. The pins&nbsp;just shear off and are usually still left in the drawer side. Still glued.

Dovetails with excessive angles fail on the drawer side because the dovetail has too much short grain at the edges of the tails.

You've oversimplified how joints fail. Grain is only one factor, others that you've missed&nbsp; or failed to study include glue, seasonal change (to both the drawer and the carcase), wood choice, use (or misuse) conditions of placement (outdoor, sun light), and execution.

If interested, google "pins vs. tails steve schafer" to see more on the subject. There in the Comments section, you'll also find the link to the joinery test I mentioned on different dovetail angles.

Experience is of course important. So is understanding it correctly.

Simon
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#33
  Re: Dovetail angle by weedsnager (What’s everyone’s pr...)
Simon, I doubt that Steven would understand the article. And Warren would deliberately misinterpret the results.
Smile

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at www.inthewoodshop.com
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#34
  Re: Dovetail angle by weedsnager (What’s everyone’s pr...)
<p>First off, Derek....one would have to get "Steven" to actually CARE.....enough to read some other "Guru's" articles....even self-proclaimed ones. &nbsp; <br></p><p><br></p><p>Right now, too busy rehabbing both my torn up Right Knee, and going out on limited Rust Hunts....</p><p><br></p><p>latest bevel gauge to arrive in the shop today...</p><p>
    </p><p>All three "treasures" cost me a total of $2.....Plane is a Stanley Rule &amp; Level Co. No. 120.&nbsp; The gauge?&nbsp; stamped..</p><p>
    </p><p>Craftsman BN....blued steel blade, brass lever, on a steel bolt, in a Brown (Walnut?) Bakelite handle ( wonder IF I can take back in to Lowes, and exchange it for a new one?&nbsp; ) Details..</p><p>
    </p><p>And that plane iron...doubt if Hock makes a new one like this...</p><p>
    </p><p><br></p><p>All them grooves are to adjust the depth of cut....the more grooves, the "finer" the adjusting of the settings.</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>Wonder what Derek will "cherry pick" out of this response...to suit his own views? &nbsp; Seems to be rather good about that....<br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p>
Show me a picture, I'll build a project from that
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#35
  Re: Dovetail angle by weedsnager (What’s everyone’s pr...)
<p>Hmmm....appears that the only way somebody feels they can win an argument about who is the better at doing a woodworking task..is to "call them out " by name....usual.&nbsp;&nbsp; Sorry, woodworking is NEVER a "My way or the highway" sort of thing.....woodworking has been around for long before any of us ( even Warren) was born, and will carry on for along time after we are all gone...</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>So, enough of the usual BS...question was asked about what IS the "preferred" angle to use when making dovetails. &nbsp; Well, IF one gives out a ratio, at least get it right..as in an angle at 1:6....1inch rise to 6 inch length. &nbsp; Or, slip the protractor head on the old combo square, and see what degrees it reads.</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>Old Man Sheraton would be laughing his butt off.....if he didn't fire some for taking way too long, fiddling with the "proper" size of a dovetail....instead of just getting the job done.<br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p>
Show me a picture, I'll build a project from that
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#36
  Re: Dovetail angle by weedsnager (What’s everyone’s pr...)
<p></p><blockquote>Old Man Sheraton would be laughing his butt off.....if he didn't fire some for taking way too long, fiddling with the "proper" size of a dovetail....instead of just getting the job done.</blockquote><p></p><p class="sceditor-nlf"><br>Steven, you really need to do some research before posting. Here is a Sheraton drop leaf table in Cherry. Look at the drawer dovetails …<br><br>[Image: 37-EB8274-7368-46-BF-A751-727-BC7-F7-D508.jpg]<br><br>[Image: Sheraton.jpg]<br><br>For good measure, here are dovetailed drawers by Hepplewhite ….<br><br>[Image: F2-AAE8-B9-8-C41-49-FB-87-D7-172-E734-AFCC8.jpg]<br><br>Look familiar?<br><br>Regards from Perth<br><br>Derek<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br></p>
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at www.inthewoodshop.com
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#37
  Re: Dovetail angle by weedsnager (What’s everyone’s pr...)
<p>Yep...cherry picking again...not a bleeding thing new..from the fella that follows me around to 4 sites....like a stalker.&nbsp; <br></p><p><br></p><p>Sigh.....</p><p><br></p><p>And....I am so sure all&nbsp; that really helps the OP's question, doesn't it...about..ANGLES?&nbsp; Hmmm....smells as bad as a Sharpening thread...kind of ripe...</p><p><br></p><p>As for me...usually it is around ...14 degrees...more or less, depends on what looks good. &nbsp;<br></p>
Show me a picture, I'll build a project from that
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#38
  Re: Dovetail angle by weedsnager (What’s everyone’s pr...)
Good picture Derek. My theory is the “London pattern” dovetails with the skinny pins was done to reduce exposed end grain. Drawers I’ve seen (and own) have this feature only in the front. I suspect it’s an attempt to keep the drawer front from moving seasonally too much.
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#39
  Re: Dovetail angle by weedsnager (What’s everyone’s pr...)
I am curious to hear more about that theory, Adam.

If this was the case, would not the best way to reduce end grain be rebated and pinned sides? How much end grain exposure could cause excessive movement?

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at www.inthewoodshop.com
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#40
  Re: Dovetail angle by weedsnager (What’s everyone’s pr...)
<p>Been on vacation so this is the first time I have had to weigh in.</p><p><br></p><p>First of all a 6:1 ratio produces a 9.462322208&nbsp; angle. Round it off at 9.5 degrees.&nbsp;10 degrees works very well with my miter gage. A 1:8 produces a 7.125016349 degree angle&nbsp; &nbsp;and since 1/8th of a degree is closer to 7 degrees Lets round it off to 7 degrees. It is said 6:1 for soft wood and 8:1 for hard wood&nbsp; 8:1 because it is easier to fit, to which I&nbsp;say who cares?</p><p><br></p><p>It the fit is properly done then neither&nbsp;a dovetail joint or a finger joint will fail. It doesn't matter whether it is a dovetail joint finger joint or a mortice and tenon, they will all fail it the fit is not correct and no glue other than cap filling glue can help and I question gap filling glue.</p><p><br></p><p>So my question is do you want the dovetail joint to look like a dovetail joint (10 degrees) or a finger joint (8 degrees) most people can't tell a 8 degree joint form a finger joint and in all cases they really don't care.&nbsp;And</p><p><br></p><p>&nbsp;most people ( not woodworkers ( do not care if they are hand cut or machine cut and can't tell the difference&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p>To use a Leigh jig&nbsp; to its fullest&nbsp;one will need a complete set of their different bits and all are at different angles depending on work piece size. But if you do not have a Leigh jig then who cares?</p><p><br></p><p>If you want 8:1 because it is in hardwood then go for it. If you like 6;1 or 7:1 who is to say you are wrong.&nbsp; Application, Application, Application.&nbsp; If it is a narrow application and two pins are to be used then maybe 8:1 will wwork best id a wider application is needed then maybe 7 pins of 7:1 will work out best.</p><p><br></p><p>If it has to be 6;1 and 8;1 because that id the way it is supposed to be then I feel sorry for your lack of creativity or can it be&nbsp;because your way is right and everyone else is wrong.</p><p><br></p><p>I wont even tell you what the angles are. But to the untrained person they know they are dovetails.</p><p><br></p><p>
    <br></p><p><br></p><p>Tom</p><p><br></p><p><br></p>
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